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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 4:36 pm Post subject: CRT is still king! |
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I'm preaching to the choir here, but with all of the advances in digital, I'm now questioning my judgment in saying I really like SXRd.
I went to the local Sony store at the mall and watched 5th Element for a few minutes on a $4000 flagship(?) 60" Sony. No question that the WOW factor is there, very punchy in bright scenes, no wonder people are buying these. BUT... the fleshtones still suck. I've complained about this for a few years now, look at any digital set that has a closeup of a face, and the brightest areas look oily, like someone is about to break out in a bad case of acne. This was very noticeable on the SXRd that I saw. THe rest of the sets in the Sony store showed the same fault. Never mind all sorts of artifacts, blah blah.
I then came home and watched 1/2 hours of HD on my 41,000 hour BArco Retro 808. Yes, the blue tube is hazy, I think this is a fault of the tube itself rather than the cooling fluid, I need to change that out... I am using an old 6000 HD receiver in passthrough mode on a Faroudja NRS processor. the convergence does drift a bit, but with brightness and contrast well under 50, I'll get another 10K hours at least out of these tubes. The fleshtones looked natural, no motion artifacting, etc.
Case #2:
I got a calll from a local pub that I installed a Barco 808 in about 6-7 years ago. They use it 14 hours a day. They complained that the pix was rolling. Turns out it was the DVDO power supply that died, the BArco showed a V frequency of 122 Hz..
That BArco is still running strong. I've repaired the power supply once. I installed it with 12,000 hours on it, it now has 38,500 hours on it! Surprisingly, the tubes are still nice and strong. Good emission and focus, minimal wear on the tubes. Go figure.
The pub said they wanted a new projector that could do HD, that the owner was looking at the small digitals. I did some quick math on the phone re bulb and projector costs, and she told me to present that to the owner once he was back from vacation. I smell an HD box and transcoder coming soon, no digital will go into that pub. Oh, and around the corner in the smoking section, the Sony 1270 installed about 5 years ago is also going strong. No repairs on that one. Ever.
Going digital any time soon? Nah, not for me!
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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You can't make any judgments about flesh tones or anything on uncalibrated displays. Evaluating a display based upon how it looks in the store is next to worthless.
You need to see some calibrated displays to draw any conclusions.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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I agree 100% with all that. Howeevr, there is one thing thoselittle boxes do which I am envious of and that's 2.35CIH . I am pretty sure this was the number reason Art switched from his stack, that and the 14 foot screen.
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emdawgz1
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 7949
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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CRT is King?!?!?
DUH! 
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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Not arguing with you Dave, you know way more about calibrations than I do, but have you not seen that artifical 'sheen' on bright areas of fleshtones? I don't know what causes those, and I'm not sure that a calibration will cure that.
Seems like it's almost a white crush, but instead of white, it's almost eggshell in color. I've seen many digital displays do that, in stores and at CES.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | Not arguing with you Dave, you know way more about calibrations than I do, but have you not seen that artifical 'sheen' on bright areas of fleshtones? I don't know what causes those, and I'm not sure that a calibration will cure that.
Seems like it's almost a white crush, but instead of white, it's almost eggshell in color. I've seen many digital displays do that, in stores and at CES. |
Bear in mind that I don't disagree with your conclusions, everything in my house is still CRT! I'm just saying, you can't make judgments off floor sets!
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| draganm wrote: | | I agree 100% with all that. Howeevr, there is one thing thoselittle boxes do which I am envious of and that's 2.35CIH . I am pretty sure this was the number reason Art switched from his stack, that and the 14 foot screen. |
Yes, CIH has been tugging at me lately. A projector with a 16:9 screen is nothing more than a big TV! But, since none of the good looking dPJs are even close in price to a good CRT, it has got me seriously considering CIA.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | Not arguing with you Dave, you know way more about calibrations than I do, but have you not seen that artifical 'sheen' on bright areas of fleshtones? I don't know what causes those, and I'm not sure that a calibration will cure that.
Seems like it's almost a white crush, but instead of white, it's almost eggshell in color. I've seen many digital displays do that, in stores and at CES. |
I've seen this on many displays. Makes you want to get a bottle of Clearasil for the whole cast. I've seen it on DLP's too. My therory: LcOS and DLP bounce the light off the chip then to the lenses. Maybe it's a reflection thing? ( Sorry not trying to be to technical here ) 
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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Funny that very few people notice this. It drives me nuts. I do need to see a properly calibrated ISF image. Maybe a trip back down to www.lascala.ca is in order?
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | | have you not seen that artifical 'sheen' on bright areas of fleshtones? I don't know what causes those, and I'm not sure that a calibration will cure that. |
If you are talking about the blown whites on bright parts of someones face, then calibration will help (depending upon the set and how closely you can get it dialed in). I do agree that most digitals do not have the "natural" look of the CRT, but some are very close.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Tinman
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 1326
Location: Carson City Nevada
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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I'm really holding out hope for OLED sets to save us from the current crop of crap. We'll see, I guess.
Marc
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drice1234
Joined: 07 Oct 2006
Posts: 1309
Location: Allen, Texas
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | , it has got me seriously considering CIA. |
This explains Dave' long absence from the forum. He has been at one of the government's uber secret training facilities studying to fight terroism. 
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MikeEby
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 5237
Location: Osceola, Indiana
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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If you want high WOW factor and don't have light control in the room this Mits 73" RP DLP is IMO a bargain at $2600. The image is NOT close to CRT quality, but the size sure makes a impact. I have a Mits 55" RPTV in my living room with green house light control, when it breaks I would consider one of these big boys.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16889248016
The sucker is huge.. but is 18" deep and weights only 100 lb.
Mike
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Tinman
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 1326
Location: Carson City Nevada
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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That's a nice set, but I wouldn't want to pay for the bulbs it eats. I had a DLP RP set. Never again. High maintenance in the real world.
Sold it the SECOND I got a plasma. At least I don't have to get scared everytime I turn on the plasma that the lamp may pop "this time".
The only type of DLP based RP set I'd even consider is one using the new LED light engine. Instant on, and at least 20,000 hour life
expectancy. A better deal IMHO. LED lit sets are going mainstream, so I'd recomend at least looking at one.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Tinman wrote: |
The only type of DLP based RP set I'd even consider is one using the new LED light engine. Instant on, and at least 20,000 hour life expectancy. |
The LED light engines I've seen are rated at 120,000 hours. Problem is, they don't yet look any good.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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dbaisey
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 821
Location: Southern Cal LA / Seattle WA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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Called 'clay-face' Curt. Doug
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Tinman
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 1326
Location: Carson City Nevada
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 12:17 am Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | Tinman wrote: |
The only type of DLP based RP set I'd even consider is one using the new LED light engine. Instant on, and at least 20,000 hour life expectancy. |
The LED light engines I've seen are rated at 120,000 hours. Problem is, they don't yet look any good. |
First gen sets were conservatively spec'd at 20k MINIMUM. Not sure if 120K is realistic, but I sure hope so.
As in everything else, it'll mature.
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Bruce 09
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 747
Location: Kamloops BC, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 1:21 am Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | have you not seen that artifical 'sheen' on bright areas of fleshtones? I don't know what causes those, and I'm not sure that a calibration will cure that. |
If you are talking about the blown whites on bright parts of someones face, then calibration will help (depending upon the set and how closely you can get it dialed in). I do agree that most digitals do not have the "natural" look of the CRT, but some are very close. |
Curt, I see that same sheen on most sets I look at now .
TO me it is one of the most annoying thing to have to look at in the new displays.
Most of that annoying sheen is from the micro bead films and coatings being used in almost all TV screens now .
They use these films for added brightness while also preserving contrast by reflecting away ambient light .
I find the DLP units the worst offenders when they have the brightness cranked on these shiny screens .
Bruce
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Fujifrontier
Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 354
Location: San Antonio, Texas
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 4:04 am Post subject: |
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yep.... i thought i was the only one who saw that digital oilface
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remotebandit
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 32
Location: Australia , Victoria
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 6:44 am Post subject: |
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Yep and its also allot more noticable on LCD TVs , they brag about their high bright picture but its just artificial , plasma wins there .
I recently bought a Full High Def 60" LG plasma and as far as quality goes well its an LG so not the best on the market but stiil bloody good , i have a die hard video phile friend of mine who was fairly impressed with my TV ( even though hes a 1 eyed LCD nut ) and he just wouldnt let his Sony Bravia be beaten by mine so over he brings his LCD and we do a side by side off the same video source and same cable . The plasma won hands down in colour tones without denial from both parties although the Bravia was sharper just an i really mean Just ad this could even be put down to the 10" size difference .
I would be great to be able to have a Plasma vs CRT battle but at the same resoutions and the same screen size .
Going back to Curts comments though , its like challenging an old 2 tonne Muscle car with a Jap import , in the end the muscle car cruises by and takes everyting it gets thrown at it , it just takes a bit more tuning but in saying this , allot of people arnt mechanincs so you can understand the move over to the dark side ... lol
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