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scottatl
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 113
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:54 pm Post subject: HDMI 1.2 vs 1.3 |
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What will the 1.3 improve on for CRT? Will the deep color make a differece?
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kal
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Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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Rolls-Royce
Joined: 30 Sep 2007
Posts: 288
Location: Victorville, CA
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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Your display also has to support "Deep Color", and older CRTs unfortunately don't. 
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moome
Joined: 01 Jun 2007
Posts: 497
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:03 am Post subject: |
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| Rolls-Royce wrote: | | Your display also has to support "Deep Color", and older CRTs unfortunately don't. |
since most CRT projector have analog input, it surely support deep color.
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kal
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Rolls-Royce
Joined: 30 Sep 2007
Posts: 288
Location: Victorville, CA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks, guys. I figured that since 'DeepColor' is newer tech, our CRTs wouldn't be capable of displaying it. That's really nice to know! 
Sorry about spreading misinformation! 
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moome
Joined: 01 Jun 2007
Posts: 497
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| Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:54 am Post subject: |
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| Rolls-Royce wrote: | Thanks, guys. I figured that since 'DeepColor' is newer tech, our CRTs wouldn't be capable of displaying it. That's really nice to know!
Sorry about spreading misinformation! |
for CRT projector , you can add HDMI V1.3 card to support deep color no problem!
then your projector is Deep color support.
for example, CRT projector can display unlimit of colors, 24bit system will have 256 steps for each color.
deep color have 1024~4096 steps for each color. CRT color step is linear, still has capability larger than deep color.
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jpop
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 40
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| Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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| moome wrote: | for CRT projector , you can add HDMI V1.3 card to support deep color no problem!
then your projector is Deep color support.
for example, CRT projector can display unlimit of colors, 24bit system will have 256 steps for each color.
deep color have 1024~4096 steps for each color. CRT color step is linear, still has capability larger than deep color. |
I know that Moome HDMI card is "rated" as HDMI 1.2 compliant. However, I remember seeing a rumor that Moome's card (Marquee) is capable of getting in 1080p/72Hz. Hence, i do have to ask from Moome... Would this card be able to input "deep colour" signal in the future as well (with some update perhaps)? It would most definitely be a delight for us CRT fellows...
Another, totally unrelated question. Since the "normal" (not e.g. HTPC) HDMI capable devices will most probably never output multiples of 24 Hz at 1080p, would there be any chance that a Moome HDMI card (Marquee) would be somehow updated to input 1080p/24 and output (to the projector) either 1080p/72 or 48?
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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| jpop wrote: | | I know that Moome HDMI card is "rated" as HDMI 1.2 compliant. However, I remember seeing a rumor that Moome's card (Marquee) is capable of getting in 1080p/72Hz. Hence, i do have to ask from Moome... Would this card be able to input "deep colour" signal in the future as well (with some update perhaps)? It would most definitely be a delight for us CRT fellows... |
Nope. Impossible. HDMI 1.3 is a completely different chipset. It's not possible to "update" HDMI 1.2 circuitry to 1.3 with only software.
| Quote: | | Another, totally unrelated question. Since the "normal" (not e.g. HTPC) HDMI capable devices will most probably never output multiples of 24 Hz at 1080p, would there be any chance that a Moome HDMI card (Marquee) would be somehow updated to input 1080p/24 and output (to the projector) either 1080p/72 or 48? |
Interesting question. Most HD-DVD and Blu-ray players have 1080p/24 output now, but 24Hz is way too low for CRT projectors to handle. Most don't even go that low and those that do would flicker like crazy making it unwatchable. You have to at least double it to 48Hz. 72Hz is better but 1080p/72 is beyond the capabilities of most CRT projectors other than high end 9" models.
So what you're basically asking is if moome would build in a scaler into his cards/boxes. While not impossible, it's highly doubtful. This is pretty complex stuff you're asking for.
Kal
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jpop
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 40
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| Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | | So what you're basically asking is if moome would build in a scaler into his cards/boxes. While not impossible, it's highly doubtful. This is pretty complex stuff you're asking for. |
I somewhat agree, except that this "scaler" does not have to do anything but buffer each frame, and output it three times per frame  Hence - one can hope ...
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kal
Forum Administrator
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Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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True - it's a not a full-fledged scaler of course, but it's still added complexity. I agree that it's an interesting idea however.
A lot more people would be interested in a 1080p/24 -> 1080i/71.928 conversion likely given that most find 1080p/48 to flicker a little too much to their liking. That conversion would be a lot more work of course.
The other issue is: How many people would actually use the 1080p/24 -> 1080p/48 (or 72) conversion instead of 1080p/60? In other words, would be really be worth it to Moome to spend the extra time and money developing and testing this for the limited market. Not sure there. This likely falls in the realm of HD-SDI. Nobody's arguing that it isn't better, just that it may not be worth it in terms of time/money. It seems the number of people that don't like the judder introduced by 3:2 pulldown is actually fairly low. Most people really don't notice it. If they did, there would have been better solutions a long time ago I think. 99% of the population watches movies on DVD/Blu-ray/HD-DVD at 60Hz and don't even notice...
But then again, we're not a normal bunch. 
Don't get me wrong - I think it's an interesting idea. Just trying to present some of the reasons why it likely won't happen. Moome's proven me wrong in the past though! (I'd certainly be interested in a feature like this too!)
Kal
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:39 am Post subject: |
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and may I sugest 1080i 96Hz and 120Hz? The 120 would cover film AND video sources x5 for film's 24Hz, x2 for 60Hz and x4 for 30hz video.
Edit: added 30Hz
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Last edited by AnalogRocks on Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:28 am; edited 1 time in total
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Joseph
Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| moome wrote: |
for CRT projector , you can add HDMI V1.3 card to support deep color no problem!
then your projector is Deep color support.
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Moome, can you offer a card or box with this option? I just bought a 1.3 compliant player, and would love to have a card or EXT-HD that would take advantage of this improvement (I have a G90).
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moome
Joined: 01 Jun 2007
Posts: 497
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| Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:37 am Post subject: |
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| Joseph wrote: | | moome wrote: |
for CRT projector , you can add HDMI V1.3 card to support deep color no problem!
then your projector is Deep color support.
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Moome, can you offer a card or box with this option? I just bought a 1.3 compliant player, and would love to have a card or EXT-HD that would take advantage of this improvement (I have a G90). |
sure! the HDMI V1.3card for G90 will in production soon~
prototype was released before, you can check forums, there are some information!
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mhalsan
Joined: 09 Nov 2007
Posts: 146
Location: Astoria, Oregon
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| AnalogRocks wrote: | | and may I sugest 1080i 96Hz and 120Hz? The 120 would cover film AND video sources x5 for film's 24Hz and x2 for 60Hz video. |
How much will these higher frame rates reduce horizontal resolution? Mathematically speaking, much more video bandwidth would be needed, but from an HT point of view, would it be noticeable?
Mark
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:31 am Post subject: |
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| mhalsan wrote: | | AnalogRocks wrote: | | and may I sugest 1080i 96Hz and 120Hz? The 120 would cover film AND video sources x5 for film's 24Hz, x2 for 60Hz and x4 for 30hz video. |
(added my edit from above)
How much will these higher frame rates reduce horizontal resolution? Mathematically speaking, much more video bandwidth would be needed, but from an HT point of view, would it be noticeable?
Mark |
I'm not sure as I have just started to play with this now that I have my HD-DVD/Blu ray drive running in my PC. I'm outputting to a Sony G520P 21" CRT monitor. It goes into protection at 1080P/96 but looks awesum at 1080i/96 it's a wierd kinda smooth. I was watching Harry Potter -OOTP and in the fast motion everything looked fluid.
I also tested 1080P/72 and it looked pretty good too. I think for the film the 1080i/96 looked a little better to me though.
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Mad Mr H
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 641
Location: London , England
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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HDMI 1.3a has a bandwidth of 340Mhz
HDMI 1.2 is 165Mhz.
(MOST hi end graphics cards use 400Mhz analogue outputs)
eventually this will mean a better colou gradient from the SOURCE.
The CRT projector is already able to reproduce this gradient.
This is another area in which "Digital" still has to catch up with analogue
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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Bandwidth has nothing to do with colour gradients. That's only limited by the bit depth. Bandwidth has everything to do with resolution/refresh rate limits.
165Mhz is already enough to pass 1920x1080/60 and even higher.
The higher bandwidth of HDMI 1.3 is 'reserved for future use'. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but that's nothing that can really make use of it today.
Kal
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
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Location: Ottawa, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, so it turns out I was wrong about "deep colour" in that the Blu-ray and HD-DVD spec *do* support it and that there *may* be discs next year that support it.
To quote another forum member:
| Quote: | They would play in players and on display devices that don't support Deep Colour just without the higher colour gamut. Deep Colour is based on xvYCC which is fairly known to be compatible with the normal SRGB colour room.
There are even some players out there that support Deep Colour by now. One that comes to my mind is the PS3. There isn't a movie supporting it however.
It (Deep Colour) is included in the HD-DVD and Blu-Ray specs also. |
I stand corrected! Adding deep colour to Moome cards/boxes may be more interesting than I thought!
Kal
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Blinx123
Joined: 24 Dec 2007
Posts: 97
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | Ok, so it turns out I was wrong about "deep colour" in that the Blu-ray and HD-DVD spec *do* support it and that there *may* be discs next year that support it.
To quote another forum member:
| Quote: | They would play in players and on display devices that don't support Deep Colour just without the higher colour gamut. Deep Colour is based on xvYCC which is fairly known to be compatible with the normal SRGB colour room.
There are even some players out there that support Deep Colour by now. One that comes to my mind is the PS3. There isn't a movie supporting it however.
It (Deep Colour) is included in the HD-DVD and Blu-Ray specs also. |
I stand corrected! Adding deep colour to Moome cards/boxes may be more interesting than I thought!
Kal |
Thanks for the quotation big dog*
I really hope my favorite movies (The Lord Of The Rings Trilogy, The Hobbit) will feature Deep Colour (The Hobbit isn't out on HDM before 2010/11 so could work).
BTW: I forgot to mention this before. There are some HDV cameras out there that feature Deep Colour/xvYCC so it's possible to make some nice home movies featuring Deep Colour and the xvYCC colour room. 8)
*I saw some other forum members calling people this way and I really waited for long to call someone like this 
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