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walteritaly
Joined: 21 Mar 2020
Posts: 90
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2024 6:21 pm Post subject: Marquee 9500lc at 1080 i 90hz |
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Hi everyone
I ask you experts for help to understand how I can make it work at 1080i and 90hz.
I would like to point out that the Maruqee is a "9500 Ultra" but with the CLM of an 8500 and VIM of a Vidikron vision 2,
the original CLM doesn't work and I had to fit one of the only ones I have.
now, from the video processor (dvdo vp50 pro) I can see 1080p 60hz well and even more defined if I go to 75hz interlaced,
I would like to get to 90i so as not to see the scan lines typical of the interlaced signal, by working on the framerate from the video processor I can get to a maximum of 76hz after which the image becomes all lines and you can no longer understand anything,
I tried varying the horizontal and vertical timings but it doesn't work.
(from the video processor you can also reach 120hz interlaced scanning)
I'm thinking that it's not a bandwidth problem because at 60p it works without problems, rather I think that the projector is not capable of going at a speed higher than 75hz.
I ask you how can I resolve this?
any advice?
thanks in advance.
Walter.
_________________
CRT's the best!! 1 "VDC Marquee 9500lc full model and franke yokes hfq 900 lenses"- Marquee 9500lc HD10 GT17 moome v2 - DVDO vp50 pro- Lumagen radiance mini.
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barclay66
Joined: 27 Jun 2011
Posts: 1304
Location: Germany
TV/Projector: Marquee 9500 Ultra
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| Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2024 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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A 9500 Ultra should be capable displaying 1080i/90. Was the 8500 an Ultra as well and which Firmware versions are You using?
Can You post a screenshot of the status page for HW/SW versions? Should be accessible somewhere with <UTIL> 0901.
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virusc
Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 358
Location: Massachusetts
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| Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2024 11:15 am Post subject: |
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1080i 90hz is a framerate I have never heard of before. Why 90hz? I have seen 1080i 96hz or 120hz but 90 does not make any sense as it should be a multiple of 24 or 60. To answer you question though it should not matter. Even a much older Electrohome 8000 would scan well above 1080i/90hz. The projector will auto lock to any signal within a range. The 8500 and 9500 are capable of much higher frequency's than you are trying. I think the problem is not the projector but the video processor. If you really want to test use a computer with a older analog out video card for different frequency testing or a older Lumagen processor. also you could get a sencore vp series signal generator for testing like below. I have seen some of these for $100 or so. They will do any custom resolution for testing in increments of one pixel and .1 frequency of H and V.
https://ebay.us/9BVSNo
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walteritaly
Joined: 21 Mar 2020
Posts: 90
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2024 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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| barclay66 wrote: | A 9500 Ultra should be capable displaying 1080i/90. Was the 8500 an Ultra as well and which Firmware versions are You using?
Can You post a screenshot of the status page for HW/SW versions? Should be accessible somewhere with <UTIL> 0901. |
Hi Barkley, thanks for the reply,
the CLM has the 4.0e software, it is a non-"ultra" 8500
I sent the photos for you to download.
It's probably a DVDO problem
I'll do some more tests and then I'll tell you
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_________________
CRT's the best!! 1 "VDC Marquee 9500lc full model and franke yokes hfq 900 lenses"- Marquee 9500lc HD10 GT17 moome v2 - DVDO vp50 pro- Lumagen radiance mini.
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walteritaly
Joined: 21 Mar 2020
Posts: 90
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2024 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| virusc wrote: | 1080i 90hz is a framerate I have never heard of before. Why 90hz? I have seen 1080i 96hz or 120hz but 90 does not make any sense as it should be a multiple of 24 or 60. To answer you question though it should not matter. Even a much older Electrohome 8000 would scan well above 1080i/90hz. The projector will auto lock to any signal within a range. The 8500 and 9500 are capable of much higher frequency's than you are trying. I think the problem is not the projector but the video processor. If you really want to test use a computer with a older analog out video card for different frequency testing or a older Lumagen processor. also you could get a sencore vp series signal generator for testing like below. I have seen some of these for $100 or so. They will do any custom resolution for testing in increments of one pixel and .1 frequency of H and V.
https://ebay.us/9BVSNo |
Hi Virusc, thanks for the reply.
You're probably right, it's a video processor problem.
I wanted to get to 90hz because this frequency is also a multiple of 60, but 96 is also fine, these are all tests I'm doing to find the best solution to see on the screen.
I also have a lumagen radiance mini but I'm not sure if you can change the frequency times,
I'll do some tests and then I'll tell you.
thanks for the information.
_________________
CRT's the best!! 1 "VDC Marquee 9500lc full model and franke yokes hfq 900 lenses"- Marquee 9500lc HD10 GT17 moome v2 - DVDO vp50 pro- Lumagen radiance mini.
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walteritaly
Joined: 21 Mar 2020
Posts: 90
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2024 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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test update 90/96/120 i
I removed the "DVDO" and installed the "Radiance mini" and now I managed to get up to 120i, I had to work on the clock which is the only way the Lumagen has to increase the framerate.
now I have other problems, if I increase the framerate with the pj turned on it has no problems locking the signal, if I then turn the pj off when I turn it on again the image is all striped and the writing "H sync out of range" appears at this point I have to update the radiance again to 1080i 60 by pressing "menu 028 ok".
I noticed that the timings remain unchanged even if I increase the scanning frequency, I don't know if it's right or if they need to be changed?
_________________
CRT's the best!! 1 "VDC Marquee 9500lc full model and franke yokes hfq 900 lenses"- Marquee 9500lc HD10 GT17 moome v2 - DVDO vp50 pro- Lumagen radiance mini.
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gjaky
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2802
Location: Budapest, Hungary
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| Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2024 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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Just FYI. I've ran 1080i 120Hz on my Marquee -until it was decommissioned- it is easy for the electornics, works fine for 24/30/60fps based formats, also easy to tweak the timings so you can use "Long retrace" mode to eliminate raster ringing. The only downside is the aliased appearance of tilted lines and jumpy vertical motion, these were far less distracting to me than the flickering even at 72Hz.
_________________
projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB, VIM-DB
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walteritaly
Joined: 21 Mar 2020
Posts: 90
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2024 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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| gjaky wrote: | | Just FYI. I've ran 1080i 120Hz on my Marquee -until it was decommissioned- it is easy for the electornics, works fine for 24/30/60fps based formats, also easy to tweak the timings so you can use "Long retrace" mode to eliminate raster ringing. The only downside is the aliased appearance of tilted lines and jumpy vertical motion, these were far less distracting to me than the flickering even at 72Hz. |
Hi Jaki, I'm happy you replied.
actually you're right, I went up to 120hz but unfortunately I still saw the scan lines and a certain jerkiness on vertical panning, I didn't like it at all, much more fluid and pleasant at 90hz,
the problem that I don't understand is that if I turn off the projector or the radiance when I turn it back on the projector doesn't lock the signal well, you see everything confused in sometimes oblique stripes... this happens at 90/96/120
if I set the frequency with the pj turned on there is no problem...
however I decided to go back to 60p at least I don't see the scan lines and it's nice and smooth, even if less defined it's more pleasant to look at.
I had to set the pj to "retrace long" to avoid raster ringing,
I had to reduce the image by 10% using the "shrink" from the lumagen to make it all fit.
a question arises spontaneously: the 9500 has a maximum resolution of 2500 points by 2000 lines, I don't understand why I have to reduce horizontally to see it all? shouldn't it make it without reductions?
Maybe because I'm using a CLM and a non-ultra 8500 VIM?
_________________
CRT's the best!! 1 "VDC Marquee 9500lc full model and franke yokes hfq 900 lenses"- Marquee 9500lc HD10 GT17 moome v2 - DVDO vp50 pro- Lumagen radiance mini.
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gjaky
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2802
Location: Budapest, Hungary
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| Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2024 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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Interlaced resolutions beyond 60Hz is something that should work in theory, but no one was caring about. In this case the culprit should be the Lumagen... I was driving mine from PC, in fact I was running interlaced resolutions for more than 10 years exclusively, never had any problem with that.
Note CRT is an analog display, there is no fixed resolution it can display. The 2500x2000 resolution on the Marquee is more of a guideline. The resolution what a CRT projector can accept only depending from the H and V scanrate. As to what it can display is depending on the actual raster setup, electron spot size, optical resolution, and video bandwidth.
_________________
projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB, VIM-DB
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walteritaly
Joined: 21 Mar 2020
Posts: 90
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2024 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| gjaky wrote: | | Note CRT is an analog display, there is no fixed resolution it can display. The 2500x2000 resolution on the Marquee is more of a guideline. The resolution what a CRT projector can accept only depending from the H and V scanrate. As to what it can display is depending on the actual raster setup, electron spot size, optical resolution, and video bandwidth. |
yes, I know well how a CRT works, at least the basic principles, I know that it does not have a fixed matrix and that the image is created by pushing electrons onto the phosphors which emit photons of different wave sizes to create the three primary colors, for to do this requires a magnetic field that is able to deflect the electron beam horizontally and vertically, by playing on these parameters you can create a matrix of various and innumerable shapes given that it is free.
Having said this, a reasoning about the functioning of this system comes naturally to me.
We have an execution time or scanning speed for each horizontal line drawn, this time is increasingly reduced if the scanning frequency is higher and is half when the signal is interlaced, in this tiny amount of time at "1080p 60 " the light pulse generator, i.e. the entire video sector from the CLM management to the VIM video module up to the VNBs placed behind the tubes, should shoot 1920 electron pulses through the cannons on the front of the tube where the phosphors are located.
It makes me think that if we have 60 progressive frames per second and if for each frame the rasters will move horizontally 1080 times per second, the speed of execution of the commercials by the video sector will not be able to keep up with the pace and will consequently cut a part of the image, for example, will only be able to push 1700 spots in the time in which the raster passes once from one side of the tube front to the other.
The only way to highlight 1920 commercials will therefore be to slow down the framerate speed with consequent slowing down of the raster, the other way will be to increase the speed of creation of the commercials by the video sector.
I asked the question about the video part of the "9500 ultra" because reading the targhet data it says that it resolves 2500 points per line for 2000 lines, I think it is per second of time (but I'm not sure because there is no written anywhere) it has 130 MHz of bandwidth whereas the 8500 only has 100 MHz of bandwidth and resolves 1600x1200...
now, I thought that by replacing the CLM and VIM with those of a "9500 ultra" I would have solved the image cutting problem.
what do you think Jaky, where we could work to solve the problem without having to lower the scanning frequency and. without having to resort to the interlaced signal?
_________________
CRT's the best!! 1 "VDC Marquee 9500lc full model and franke yokes hfq 900 lenses"- Marquee 9500lc HD10 GT17 moome v2 - DVDO vp50 pro- Lumagen radiance mini.
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