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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:22 pm Post subject: Graphic Equalizers |
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I remember reading thread on Audio Asylum about people "tuning" their 2 channel audio systems. Basically it involved endless swapping of components including speakers, wires, interconnects, amps, on and on just to slightly change the tonal balance of a system. Too bright, too forward, too laid back yadayadayadayada no problem, just spend hundreds or thousands of dollars and hope your new gadget does the trick.
One guys said " back in the old days we just used an equalizer" LOL. So it started me thinking, what happened here? When did using a EQ become Audio sacrilege and something that "corrupted" the purity of your stereo?
I want to try one, looks like there's plenty of on E-bay. My dilemma is I want a high quality one that's pure analog, not digital processing DJ units. My other problem is I know nothing about them, like who built the really good ones back in the 70's/80's?
Any suggestions?
http://www.ebay.com/sch/Signal-Processors-Rack-Effects-/23791/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=equalizer&saveon=2
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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I think most audiophiles are against it simply because you're putting more "stuff" in the signal path - perhaps, unnecessarily. Pots, op-amps, more interconnects, another power supply...
That said, I've always liked having a little EQ. Used judiciously, I think it can make some real improvement to a system's sound. Most people just don't have a room that gives a nice flat in-room response, and careful use of EQ can certainly improve that. This is borne out in how popular EQ has become in multichannel with room correction systems like Audyssey and Trinnov.
I say, go for it. Try it. You can always get rid of it if you don't like it.
I wouldn't limit yourself to vintage "pure analog" and malign DSP, either... That's what a lot of really powerful high-end professional cinema and audiophile gear offers now... There's a reason they're using it.
SC
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gjaky
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2802
Location: Budapest, Hungary
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| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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An equalizer is basically a bounch of different filters tied together, and if you adjust a filter's amplitude response you adjust its phase respose too, and this is why audiophiles don't like equalizers, because they can mess up the localization.
On the other hand I had the chance to listen a system with Lyngdorf TDAI2200 amplifier with built in room correction (so called "room perfect") on a 2.2 speaker setup, boy, that was impressive!
http://www.lyngdorf.com/technologies/roomperfect
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projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB, VIM-DB
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the big E
Joined: 20 Apr 2013
Posts: 1928
Location: speedwell Tn.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:51 am Post subject: |
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guys being someone who has had a equalizer in my home audio system i can say if your are NOT a audiophille you may like it but since mine quit(really over did the highs for my liking) i haven't had one since i think it just sounds more natural(i know i sound like a audiophile because i am one)i still don't buy into the monster cables thing(THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE)
i have a harman kardon receiver with the 1980's era infinity rs-5 speakers(with the emit tweeters)
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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| gjaky wrote: | | An equalizer is basically a bounch of different filters tied together, and if you adjust a filter's amplitude response you adjust its phase respose too, and this is why audiophiles don't like equalizers, because they can mess up the localization. |
Yes, EQs do shift phase, but that's exactly what they're designed to do. Phase shift is how they WORK! But, I think this misconception that EQ is bad is exactly why people don't use EQs. It's a misconception, though... The phase shift is used to affect frequency response, but the resulting signal isn't phase-shifted, nor does it affect localization!
Question for you: If EQ is so bad and affects localization, then why do mixing engineers use it EXTENSIVELY in the recording of the music you're listening to, both on live and studio recordings??!!?
Only analog EQ is bad? What about all those amazing classic recordings from the 60's, 70's, 80's, and even into the 90's. All analog EQ right on the mixing board, complete with phase shift.
http://www.ethanwiner.com/EQPhase.html
| Quote: | | Some people confuse the sound of Phaser and Flanger effects with the phase shift that's inherent in all equalizers. Phaser and Flanger effects use phase shift internally in the same way an EQ does, but what they really do is alter the frequency response. That is what you hear when you run a track through a Flanger. It's the comb filtering - a series of many peaks and dips in the frequency response - that drastically changes the sound, not the audibility of the phase shift used to create that effect. The "problems" caused by phase shift have been repeated so many times by magazine writers and audio salespeople that it's now commonly accepted, even though there's not a shred of truth to it. |
http://rane.com/note115.html
| Quote: | Phase shift is not a bad word. It is the glue at the heart of what we do, holding everything together. That it has become a maligned term is most unfortunate. This belief stands in the way of people really understanding the requirements for room equalization.
The frequency response of most performing rooms looks like a heart attack victim's EKG results. Associated with each change in amplitude is a corresponding change in phase response. Describing them as unbelievably jagged is being conservative. Every time the amplitude changes so does the phase shift. In fact, it can be argued that phase shift is the stuff that causes amplitude changes. Amplitude, phase and time are all inextricably mixed by the physics of sound. One does not exist without the others.
An equalizer is a tool. A tool that allows you to correct for a room's anomalies. It must be capable of reproducing the exact opposite response of the one being connected. This requires precise correction at many neighboring points with the associated phase shift to correct for the room's opposing phase shift. It takes phase shift to fix phase shift. Simple as that. |
This is the thing most audiophiles don't understand or don't want to face: There's one component in a system that's just as important as the speakers, and more important than practically everything else: The room. It's not sexy to spend money on the room, it isn't something you can just fix by ordering some nice piece of gear you can brag about in the forums.
Unless you're super-lucky and have a huge room and/or have lots of treatments and your speakers miraculously maintained an almost flat in-room frequency response, you can probably benefit from some EQ, the most basic of which are bass/treble knobs. Use them. Use whatever makes your system sound better to you, but don't just trust your ears. Get a mic and take some measurements, too.
This is one area the home theater guys are WAY ahead of the 2-channel guys on, is understanding and dealing with room acoustics.
SC
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the big E
Joined: 20 Apr 2013
Posts: 1928
Location: speedwell Tn.
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2013 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | gjaky wrote: | | An equalizer is basically a bounch of different filters tied together, and if you adjust a filter's amplitude response you adjust its phase respose too, and this is why audiophiles don't like equalizers, because they can mess up the localization. |
Yes, EQs do shift phase, but that's exactly what they're designed to do. Phase shift is how they WORK! But, I think this misconception that EQ is bad is exactly why people don't use EQs. It's a misconception, though... The phase shift is used to affect frequency response, but the resulting signal isn't phase-shifted, nor does it affect localization!
Question for you: If EQ is so bad and affects localization, then why do mixing engineers use it EXTENSIVELY in the recording of the music you're listening to, both on live and studio recordings??!!?
Only analog EQ is bad? What about all those amazing classic recordings from the 60's, 70's, 80's, and even into the 90's. All analog EQ right on the mixing board, complete with phase shift.
http://www.ethanwiner.com/EQPhase.html
| Quote: | | Some people confuse the sound of Phaser and Flanger effects with the phase shift that's inherent in all equalizers. Phaser and Flanger effects use phase shift internally in the same way an EQ does, but what they really do is alter the frequency response. That is what you hear when you run a track through a Flanger. It's the comb filtering - a series of many peaks and dips in the frequency response - that drastically changes the sound, not the audibility of the phase shift used to create that effect. The "problems" caused by phase shift have been repeated so many times by magazine writers and audio salespeople that it's now commonly accepted, even though there's not a shred of truth to it. |
http://rane.com/note115.html
| Quote: | Phase shift is not a bad word. It is the glue at the heart of what we do, holding everything together. That it has become a maligned term is most unfortunate. This belief stands in the way of people really understanding the requirements for room equalization.
The frequency response of most performing rooms looks like a heart attack victim's EKG results. Associated with each change in amplitude is a corresponding change in phase response. Describing them as unbelievably jagged is being conservative. Every time the amplitude changes so does the phase shift. In fact, it can be argued that phase shift is the stuff that causes amplitude changes. Amplitude, phase and time are all inextricably mixed by the physics of sound. One does not exist without the others.
An equalizer is a tool. A tool that allows you to correct for a room's anomalies. It must be capable of reproducing the exact opposite response of the one being connected. This requires precise correction at many neighboring points with the associated phase shift to correct for the room's opposing phase shift. It takes phase shift to fix phase shift. Simple as that. |
This is the thing most audiophiles don't understand or don't want to face: There's one component in a system that's just as important as the speakers, and more important than practically everything else: The room. It's not sexy to spend money on the room, it isn't something you can just fix by ordering some nice piece of gear you can brag about in the forums.
Unless you're super-lucky and have a huge room and/or have lots of treatments and your speakers miraculously maintained an almost flat in-room frequency response, you can probably benefit from some EQ, the most basic of which are bass/treble knobs. Use them. Use whatever makes your system sound better to you, but don't just trust your ears. Get a mic and take some measurements, too.
This is one area the home theater guys are WAY ahead of the 2-channel guys on, is understanding and dealing with room acoustics.
SC |
ecrab i didn't mean that all of the equalizers are bad(just crappy ones) i have had two in my system over time(one was analog the other was digital) i ain't naming brands as i forgot what they were but the digital unit did better for my listening environment and equipment then the analog unit did(it made the highs way to bright)only problem is the digital unit decided to quit working on certain inputs and i haven't had the time to fix it(i am sure a newer unit would outdo the old one anyway i just haven't found one i like yet)but i did like how well it did for the audio(and miss it)
fyi i setup my 7.1 surround sound system by myself and you are right about the room having a lot to do with the acoustics(i get hassled by members on the car forum about this a lot(don't ask))
but i will put it this way after i got my 7.1 system setup done it was like night and day (hd audio for blu ray movies) from my old unit that i was using (the picture is half the movie the audio is the rest)
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Thu May 02, 2013 12:10 am Post subject: |
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when you guys talk about digital equalizers are you talking about manipulating the analog signal using digital circuitry or actually digitizing the audio,then applying equalization to it,then turning it back into Analog. If it's the latter,then no thanks. What's the point of even running a turntable if your going to of A-D-A conversion anyway?
I listened ot my system again the other night,still trying ot get used to the new Receiver. It has a "pure direct" mode for analog inputs and when I tried that everything sounded pretty dam good with my Rega TT.
Listened to 3 Rush Albums and finished off with a side of Dianna Krall (to make me sleepy) 
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the big E
Joined: 20 Apr 2013
Posts: 1928
Location: speedwell Tn.
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| Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 5:30 am Post subject: |
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| draganm wrote: | when you guys talk about digital equalizers are you talking about manipulating the analog signal using digital circuitry or actually digitizing the audio,then applying equalization to it,then turning it back into Analog. If it's the latter,then no thanks. What's the point of even running a turntable if your going to of A-D-A conversion anyway?
I listened ot my system again the other night,still trying ot get used to the new Receiver. It has a "pure direct" mode for analog inputs and when I tried that everything sounded pretty dam good with my Rega TT.
Listened to 3 Rush Albums and finished off with a side of Dianna Krall (to make me sleepy) |
not sure on the circuitry but the one i had that had analog sliders made the high end harsh while the digital one i had(still have it just need to repair it) made the overall sound better while not making the highs harsh(different brands makes the difference kinda like the old saying you get what you pay for)
Last edited by the big E on Fri May 03, 2013 5:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 5:35 am Post subject: |
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FWIW, it`s really hard finding an all analog equalizer now in the pro audio world. It`s all digital, with either digital or analog in and or out.
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the big E
Joined: 20 Apr 2013
Posts: 1928
Location: speedwell Tn.
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| Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 5:39 am Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | | FWIW, it`s really hard finding an all analog equalizer now in the pro audio world. It`s all digital, with either digital or analog in and or out. |
i know that feeling i have been searching for a good unit for a while but have yet to find one(i may just repair my old one vs replacing it)
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 5:47 am Post subject: |
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Stupid thing is, 99% of them use the same damn components (analog eqs, that is.) I`ve seen cheapie Pyramid units use the same chips as super high end units. so just look for something used where the sliders aren`t all shot...
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the big E
Joined: 20 Apr 2013
Posts: 1928
Location: speedwell Tn.
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| Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 5:59 am Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | | Stupid thing is, 99% of them use the same damn components (analog eqs, that is.) I`ve seen cheapie Pyramid units use the same chips as super high end units. so just look for something used where the sliders aren`t all shot... |
i didn't have my analog unit three months before the right channel died(it was a gently used second hand unit)and i could barely hear anything from it i even checked the cables to make sure it wasn't them(that was not fun)
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416ray4538
Joined: 14 Jul 2009
Posts: 517
Location: near Toronto Ont
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| Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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Unless you only listen to the extremely rare recordings that haven't been "produced" all to hell, it's already been through eq so purity is not an issue. If an equalizer will correct for your room or personal taste there is no reason not to go for it. When setting up, cut only, never boost. If you boost , you're asking for more power in a narrow band thereby limiting maximum power over all
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When the first clock was invented, how did they know what time to set it to?
No point being pessimistic; it probably would't work anyway.
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barclay66
Joined: 27 Jun 2011
Posts: 1304
Location: Germany
TV/Projector: Marquee 9500 Ultra
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| Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:15 am Post subject: |
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
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Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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barclay66
Joined: 27 Jun 2011
Posts: 1304
Location: Germany
TV/Projector: Marquee 9500 Ultra
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| Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks! 
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