CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum

[ecrabb]

Curious what you guys think about this...

This nice guy bought my old 1271 off my ceiling a few years ago, moved out of state, then recently moved back. The projector has been sitting all that time. He emailed me a few months ago, asked me a few questions, and in spite of my guidance, he's still hung up. I can understand... It's technical stuff, he has no experience, and he's worried about making a mistake. Now, he's emailed and asked if he could just pay me to help him install the projector and screen, and set it all up for him.

I can do that, but the question is, what's fair for both of us?

I'm not a pro (but I could be...) It's a 1271 we're talking about, and this is a guy that like me, bought a used CRT because he liked that it cost about what a single bulb for a digital cost, and because he liked the picture. When he bought it from me, I was very upfront about the fact that it required a time investment to learn and understand, and of course linked him to this forum and explained it was all the resource he'd ever need.

Anyway, I emailed him and told him we could take two approaches:

Approach 1) I help him do everything, and it takes a solid weekend day to hang the screen and projector, then I come back for 3-4 hours to do setup and rough calibration. 10-14 hours of work and travel (he lives 40 minutes away).

Approach 2) He sends me pics and dimensions of his room, and I give him design docs to guide him on exactly where everything goes, he does the physical install, and I just come out once to do final setup/calibration. 4-6 hours including driving out and back.

So, the question is, what's a fair hourly rate? I feel bad because I sold him the projector and now he needs help, but obviously that's not my fault... So, I don't want it to cost him a lot of money, but on the other hand, I have plenty of things I'd rather do with my time, so I don't know what's fair.

Before you answer, this is the midwest where new entry-level suburban homes are <$200k, and typical white collar salaries are around $50k-60k. When I do freelance design, video and photography work, I'm usually shooting for around $50/hr.

So, would about half my normal rate - $25/hr be reasonable? Too high? Too low?

I'm also going to make him a deal on my original HD Fury, an RGBHV snake, and an Extron interface I really don't need anymore, but there's another $150 worth of crap he needs ($100+$25+$25).

Watching somebody else go through this, it's not difficult to understand somebody buying a digital and screwing it onto the ceiling and grabbing the remote, a Coke, and a bowl of popcorn.

Thoughts?

Thanks!

XXVI remain,
SC

[draganm]

Do option 2, charge him $350. time for set-up. That would make it worth your time and it's fair. Try getting a plumber to come to your house for 4 hours at that rate.

[greg_mitch]

I say he pays mileage and then $100 per day assuming you don't stay for more than 5-6 hours per day.

The forum could probably help him mount up the projector, etc.

Personally...I always had a problem paying for calibration when it costs almost 80% of the projector cost!

[Sparky015]

I would go option 2 unless he's willing to pay you for dedicating an entire weekend to helping him out. $350 to do a full calibration from scratch seems pretty reasonable to me for someone not a pro. Just walk him through the steps to figure out throw distance and his method of choice for pj and screen mounting.

[kal]

What exactly is he asking you to do Steve? Complete hanging of the unit on his ceiling (which you've never seen and may have to hack into and he may not have a way to hang it) or is it already hung and he just wants someone to grab the remote and do a convergence/lens toe-in/etc?

EDIT: I re-read. He wants to whole setup. Frankly, my gut feel is that he'd never want to pay anywhere near what your time is worth. I doubt he'd want to spend more than $200-300 tops. Anything more and he'll probably feel like you're trying to screw him. It'll most likely take you a good 1-2 full days getting it hung and dialed in. I can imagine that NOTHING is done so you'd end up making 3 trips to home depot too.

I know you want to help but it rarely works out being as simple as you think. Wife doesn't want a hole cut in the ceiling to hang the projector, etc. He can always sell the unit himself. It sounds like you really spelt it out for him. I suggest pointing him here, tell him to read the manuals, ask all the questions he wants on the forum. If he's unwilling to do that after all you told him, it's his own fault.

One of other problems (and one reason I never like to set up HT's for people) is that if there's any questions at all or problems, you're the first person he calls. *ESPECIALLY* true if you charge him money (no matter how low-rate you go). He won't understand that normally someone with this experience would charge $50-100/hr or more. If something 'happens' 2 or 6 or even 12 months down the road he'll feel like you probably owe him something to fix it.

If you choose to help at all, go with option 2. I'd suggest doing sometihng really minimal in cost (if not free) and just do a quick 10 minute convergence.

If someone buys a used car from you and hits a post driving it home, do we feel obliged to help them out? As long as you pointed out there's work involved you should have a clear concience about this.

Kal

[kal]

What exactly is he asking you to do Steve? Complete hanging of the unit on his ceiling (which you've never seen and may have to hack into and he may not have a way to hang it) or is it already hung and he just wants someone to grab the remote and do a convergence/lens toe-in/etc?

EDIT: I re-read. He wants to whole setup. Frankly, my gut feel is that he'd never want to pay anywhere near what your time is worth. I doubt he'd want to spend more than $200-300 tops. Anything more and he'll probably feel like you're trying to screw him. It'll most likely take you a good 1-2 full days getting it hung and dialed in. I can imagine that NOTHING is done so you'd end up making 3 trips to home depot too.

I know you want to help but it rarely works out being as simple as you think. Wife doesn't want a hole cut in the ceiling to hang the projector, etc. He can always sell the unit himself. It sounds like you really spelt it out for him. I suggest pointing him here, tell him to read the manuals, ask all the questions he wants on the forum. If he's unwilling to do that after all you told him, it's his own fault.

One of other problems (and one reason I never like to set up HT's for people) is that if there's any questions at all or problems, you're the first person he calls. *ESPECIALLY* true if you charge him money (no matter how low-rate you go). He won't understand that normally someone with this experience would charge $50-100/hr or more. If something 'happens' 2 or 6 or even 12 months down the road he'll feel like you probably owe him something to fix it.

If you choose to help at all, go with option 2. I'd suggest doing sometihng really minimal in cost (if not free) and just do a quick 10 minute convergence.

If someone buys a used car from you and hits a post driving it home, do we feel obliged to help them out? As long as you pointed out there's work involved you should have a clear concience about this.

Kal

[draganm]

[CxTurbo]

I have been down a simillar road with a gentleman (or so he seemed at the time) with a vehicle. I tried to offer him advice and what reading material/sites to visit to gain the information. He did make effort and still could not get his head around it. So I offered to look and help where I could with no mention of money. Long story short when all did not go his way and he could not do anything more with what he had he tried to screw me. Even went to the lengths to contact the president of the company I worked for stating that I solicited him to perform repairs and accepted cash from him for the service to save him money not to bring it into our shop. I did no such thing but he was trying to get something for nothing.

Sad but I help no one now. I do not want it to be that way but I always end up getting the short end of the stick one way or another. Calls because they broke or screwed with something etc......


Do as you wish but tread lightly my friend. Might be more trouble then it is worth.

Food for thought

[kal]

[kal]

[Sparky015]

I would agree with Kal. offer to maybe calbrate his white balance and color space so he doesn't have to buy a meter and offer free support. You told him the involvement in setting up a CRT projector. If he is above his head and doesn't want to come here, wash your hands of it. You sold him a pj, not pj and support.

Definitely stay away from option 1. You don't want to get into a HT install. He isn't going to spend the dollars that type of involvement would be worth

[zGman]

Once you touch something for someone - even for free - you will be married to it & especially
if you sell him more parts. The thing that would concern me is him not being able to even get
started with all the info on the forum.
G

[Nashou66]

I replaced bellows for a local guy, found him a lumagen HDQ, sold him a moome card and set it up with 11 point greyscale. With out the moome card he gave me 400 and said it was well worth it. I heard back from him once for a return visit...........................




I forgot my tri pod there

Athanasios

[atomiccow]

Its kind of funny in that I just loved my 1271 so much when I passed it on to the new guy I wanted everything to work so he would be as thrilled as me. I included it in the price of the projector which I sold to him for $450. Which was more than I was told I could get for this projector a couple years ago even though I felt it was worth much more. I helped him hang it which was kind of a circus because we couldn't at first get my drywall lift through the door so he first tried rigging it with pulleys. It was hilariously scary. So I compelled him to let me take the wheels off the lift and it went up like a breeze. I spent way more time there than I expected. 6 or maybe even seven hours. But once it was hung I showed him how to register it and he was happy. He gave me a hundred extra bucks for the help. And I was happy with that. I got my satisfaction out of helping the guy get set up. I didn't reset the magnets on the tubes or the pitch of the lenses or anything highly technical. Since it was displaying a great pic in my theater I knew it would be fine as is on his ceiling.

Actually at the end I felt a little guilty because when I saw the thing blasting on the wall I realized how pretty seriously burned my blue tube was. I was pretty stunned how bright the blue on the edges was. I checked it six months before and it didn't look too bad. But I was able to shrug off the guilt because it looked truly awesome in my theater which was totally light controlled. I also felt bad for him because his artist loft was very 'not' light controlled. And he was displaying the picture 12' diagonal. And he was using a straight unpowered VGA to RGBHV cable which I later learned from personal experience kind of sucks picture wise. I did right by him but his picture at home looked pretty feeble compared to what we saw at my place. I even told him if he finds a blue tube I would re-tube if for him free of charge. I'd say he lived 25 minutes drive time from me.

I later helped him get a tube on AVS forum. I was jealous how cheap he bought it for. But he never asked me to come install it.
That was probably because when I sold it to him I mentioned after the install I kind of wanted to be done with it. That he should take his questions to AVS Forums.
I guess what I am saying in telling the story is, you probably deserve $350 for doing that sort of work and I hope you get it.
But I don't think you need to feel like a schmuck if you do something cheaper than you want to do it. There are other rewards just in being a good guy and helping get a guy going. Personally no one helped me get set up free but a lot of people did give me massive amounts of free help on the forums. So I had some Karma deficit I worked out on that job. And I genuinely wanted him to be as happy as me he owned the thing.

Your rate sounds fair. As a third alternative I'd suggest even just setting it up on the floor and let him figure out how to hang it later. Give him lessons on registration and focusing the tubes. Then make sure he can do it and go home. You will have taught a man to fish.

[HaydnG90]

As others have said, best to stay away from a full on commitment to mount, mechanical setup and calibration. Too many risks and ultimately you won't get reimbursed for the time you'll end up spending.

Just to give you an idea I spent $375 on a professional calibration, focus and colorimetry for my G90 4 years ago. I installed the pj on the ceiling and setup the screen. Even though I'd done a lot of the preliminary work he still ended up spending 14 hours in my HT to achieve the perfect spot beam, greyscale and colorimetry. Best money I spent in my media room.

[Curt Palme]

All of the above reasons is why I far prefer commercial installs to home installs. I hung an XG into a new home about 3 years ago. 2 layers of STYROFOAM insulation, about 3" thick above the drywall. We finally found a stud, got the 3' square sheet of plywood up with a bunch of BIG toggle bolts, had to hack away at the styro to get the toggle bolts to open up on the other side of the drywall. a 4 hour install ended up taking 8, and we told the customer he was responsible for putting up molding to hide the RGBHV cable. I was over there last year, and he still had the wire tacked up around the room with wire ties.

[Curt Palme]

All of the above reasons is why I far prefer commercial installs to home installs. I hung an XG into a new home about 3 years ago. 2 layers of STYROFOAM insulation, about 3" thick above the drywall. We finally found a stud, got the 3' square sheet of plywood up with a bunch of BIG toggle bolts, had to hack away at the styro to get the toggle bolts to open up on the other side of the drywall. a 4 hour install ended up taking 8, and we told the customer he was responsible for putting up molding to hide the RGBHV cable. I was over there last year, and he still had the wire tacked up around the room with wire ties.

[wallace123456]

Hhhmmm.. Is he a "friend" and someone you care about other than "John Smith off jump street"? If so, then you decide. Don't make it a business deal.

Offer to "help" him get it set-up for a fee "you" think is right. It's your time and your effort and the fact that you are "helping a friend" or "charging someone for a small business fee"; that's the bottom line (in my opinion).

Maybe I give away too much of my time and stuff to "help" others. But, that's me.

For me, I have received much more than I have given out (and trust me I am blessed and thankful for that )

BTW, really, don't stay out-of-sight too long. I enjoy your comments and posts.

wallace

[AnalogRocks]

Last projector I set up was a 1272. I traded 3 PC games for my time. It was fun.

[AnalogRocks]

Last projector I set up was a 1272. I traded 3 PC games for my time. It was fun.

[kal]

[kal]

[atomiccow]

I should say this.
I try to honor a principle that you shouldn't put more effort into making something happen than the other guy is willing to put in himself. You can't care more than the owner. Unless of course the guy is willing to pay to compensate for the lack of effort on his part. A CRT is not a set it and forget it thing. Its like a baby, you have to love it and discipline it on an ongoing basis to reap the rewards. And the first month can be some hard work. After that a 1271 can provide years of trouble free fun. A digital is the right choice for the easily frustrated man. He probably didn't pay a lot for his 1271. If he is a crybaby...and if he hung up on you it sounds like he is possibly trouble, and possibly coming to terms with the reality that he spent money on a horse he wasn't ready to learn to ride. Maybe this is a life mistake he has to live with. He bought a really heavy projector that needs really low light and maybe thought he could own a real theater for a couple hundred bucks and little initial effort.

[MikeEby]