CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum

icemanrrc · Joined: 11 Jun 2009 Posts: 2

Here is my setup:
Klipsch quintets surround - 2 fronts, center, 2 rear
Klipsch KSW10 Sub
Denon AVR-1602 receiver
Panasonic DMP-35k Blu Ray

I can't hear speech that well. No matter if it is Dolby Digital, DTS, or whatever. The speech gets washed out by the surround sounds (not necessarily the surround speakers themselves). I thought all I needed to do was to increase the volume of the center speaker and that would take care of it. NOPE! It didn't. I even checked and calibrated all surround speakers to be exact with a sound level meter and pumped the center channel even louder. No good. I checked my connections on the back of the receiver to make sure each speaker was hooked up correctly and all is correct. When I get close to the center speaker, it sounds like it is also letting sounds other than voice/speach come through. I thought the center was supposed to only have speach coming through it. What can I do to remedy this problem? Many thanks in advance!

**AnalogRocks** · Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:37 am Post subject:

Check your speaker wires and make sure they are all in phase. Reverse the speaker wires at the terminals on the center channel speaker

Also check and make sure you don't have the surround on Phantom center channel.

draganm · Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 8990 Location: Colorado

Clear dialogue is one the hardest things to really nail down a HT. IT occurs at a frequency range of typically 500 hz to 2500 hz. That frequncy can also be very directional, so if your CC is close to the floor or pointing at the audiences knees it will be very hard to hear. Also, any reflective surfaces will quickly distort the sound reaching the listeners.
Another problem is that frequency is also where plastic starts to resonate, and it's what your speakers appear to be made of. If so, that resonant frequency can quickly garble dialogue. I would try this

1) raising the CC as high as possible and angling it up to the listening position. My CC actually intrudes on the 4" black velvet screen border and angles up 5 to 10 degree's

2) make sure there are no reflective surfaces right in front on the CC. If you have tile or wood floors throw down a rug.

3) finally I would try a full size upper end model from Klipsch. The better Center channels actually allow for bi-wiring and that made a nice improvement in mine. I would recommend the RC-10, you should be able to snag one for about $180. It's actually crossed over internally and dedicates one full 4 inch driver to dialogue mid-range. Looks like they use some decent parts inside for the cross-over too

http://www.klipsch.com/na-en/products/rc-10-overview/

dturco · Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:18 pm Post subject:

WTS · Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 1276 Location: Calgary

Get rid of the center channel and have the voice come through the L/R channels then you'll be good to go. Really I have no idea why anyone would want a center channel.

**AnalogRocks** · Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:39 pm Post subject:

WTS · Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 1276 Location: Calgary

And why would you want most of the sound coming through the center channel? So when sounds happen on the left side of the screen does the sound come through the center? If your audio system has descent separation why would you need a center speaker, you don't need a center channel to hear music in the middle of the stage when you listen PinkFloyd live do you? So why do you need it for movies? I hear so many time people complaining that things don't sound right and the voices are hard to make out, including my brother who has the expensive Anthem setup with Dynaudio speakers. I can't stand listening to his setup just for that reason, they just don't work correctly in my experience.

**AnalogRocks** · Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:57 pm Post subject:

I find the exact opposite. I ran the "phantom" center channel when I was building my system a piece at a time. The dialog was hard to hear.

Then I bought a tiny center channel ( paradigm CC-50 ) which wasn't the greatest. That's when I realized the DD mixes rely heavily on the center channel. I sold that tiny center channel speaker and bought the biggest one in the series (CC-350 ). THEN the dialog really came through.

Shortly after that I also added 5 separate amps, giving the 3 front channels 300 watts each ( as opposed to the 60 I was running before ) and the rears 125 watts each ( as opposed to the 45 each before ). That was when my room really gave me theater sound. The clarity in the dialog of the center channel improved greatly, not as much as going from the tiny speaker to the big speaker but still an improvement.

Now as for the audio recordings done on 5 speakers. I prefer 4 speakers for that. I don't like the vocals coming out of the center channel speaker. But for movies, absolutely need the center channel.

So I agree with draganm, get a bigger center channel speaker.

garyfritz · Joined: 08 Apr 2006 Posts: 12088 Location: Fort Collins, CO

Room reflections can sometimes cause muddy dialog. Try tossing up some temporary absorbers as an experiment -- lean a couple of twin-size mattresses against the side walls in the reflection positions, or something like that -- and see if it helps. If it does, then you should consider building/buying some sound absorbing panels for all the reflection points: definitely sides, and ceiling if you can do it.

WTS · Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 1276 Location: Calgary

Phantom center, who's talking about phantom centers, damn I can imagine that sounding bad. Okay we'll just agree to disagree on this one. I've read of numerous people on AVS who have high end systems who experience the same as I do. If you were to run simply 2 channel audio L/R for the movies just hear the difference in the voices you might think otherwise. Having more power won't help the problem.
I run a 2 channel system, biamped, each amp is capable of 800 watts and I'll put it up against 98% of the HT setups out there and I know I'll prefer mine at the end of the day. Not because of the power but as a stereo setup there has been very few (one) local setups costing well over 50G that I liked better than what I have, then on the other hand I designed and built it, the amps/speakers and digital interfaces/dacs myself so maybe I'm slightly biased ( sorry didn't mean to toot my own horn).

**AnalogRocks** · Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:40 pm Post subject:

Ohhhhh you're a stereo only guy. Yes, playing a movie in stereo sounds good.

BUT

since he already has a 5.1 system I would go with a bigger center channel speaker.

WanMan · Joined: 19 Mar 2006 Posts: 10270

Are you on Verizon wireless? Very Happy

huggy · Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:09 pm Post subject:

draganm · Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 8990 Location: Colorado

Walter has a point in that 2 channel through a pair of really nice speakers can do amazing things and while the center channel has come a long way since the Pro-Loigic days, it never really sounds quite right. Not perfect anyways t othe point where it blends seemlessly with the mains. The CC will always call attention to itself to some degree and stick out.
However, that doesn't change the fact that DD is encoded as 7.1 seperate channels. By eliminating any of them your simply losing that part of the recording. IT's entirely possible to get very intelligible dialogue from the CC, it just takes some or all the things mentioned above to be set correctly.

greg_mitch · Joined: 03 May 2006 Posts: 5320

WTS · Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 1276 Location: Calgary

All good arguments but I've heard numerous setups from mid priced to high priced and I just see the hoopla over it. Yes I sit pretty much in the center but if you're listening to a system that has great imaging then it's not a problem sitting off center. I suppose if the 2 channel sytem didn't have that good of imaging as well as separation then I could see the point.

Yeah maybe I'm missing a little something because I don't have all 5 or 7 channels blairing out whatever crap the studio thought might sound good but I'm more than happy with the high end quality sound I have over anything else I've heard. Most of the surrounds put out very little sound most of the time anyway.

draganm · Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 8990 Location: Colorado

greg_mitch · Joined: 03 May 2006 Posts: 5320

Why would you spend $1k on acoustic treatments...just do it yourself. Shouldn't cost much more than $300 for all of the insulation and fabric and wood.

garyfritz · Joined: 08 Apr 2006 Posts: 12088 Location: Fort Collins, CO

Heck yes. I did side-wall treatments and 8'x4' bass traps in the front corners, and I doubt I spent $300.

draganm · Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 8990 Location: Colorado

the stuff I have now is DIY and it's OK but I was never able to really get a really polished pro look with my versions. I could probably do it a lot better second time around but after building 2 DIY screens i'm just burned out on DIY. IT's extremely time consuming and as I found out recently with a local plumber it's better to just pay someone who does this stuff every day.
He fixed a leak in my main and installed a new kitchen sink + faucet for $200. it would have taken me all day Saturday and 5 trips to HD to do what took him 2 hours. Best 200 bucks I ever spent.
the commercial sound panels are also really quite affordable now. I bet 500 bucks would treat a room very well and look really nice. Gary's corner traps turned out really nice though, wonder how long it took?