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picree
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 351
Location: Johnson City, TN
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:02 am Post subject: Lumagen HDP Pro HDCP & RGBHV |
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Just recently bought a Lumagen HDP Pro. My neighbor swears you can output anything from the DVI inputs to the RGBHV outputs. I'm confused because the manual specifically states (now that I read it  ) that the RGBHV output is shut off if the DVI input detects HDCP. I have a Barco and really need to use the RGBHV output.
My neighbor says that what they mean in manual is simply that you can't output to both DVI and RGBHV at the same time for HDCP protected content. 
Right now my only two inputs are an Oppo upscaling DVD player and an HD OTA box. I don't think either have HDCP. But if I get a BluRay am I screwed?
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MAIN THEATER: (JVC RS2000; Yamaha UDP-LX500; Yamaha RX-V2400; Lumagen Radiance Pro, Vertex)
SECOND WII-ATER: (BG808; WII; Oppo 971H; Moome external box; BG-DVI transcoder; tse gamma box; Extron)
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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Your neighbor is an idiot.
The manual is correct. Your best option is an HDMI/DVI to RGBHV converter as Athanasios recommended (either the MUX or the HDFury).
As an aside, to be able to put a chip that decodes HDCP in order to process the signal, Lumagen (and others) must sign a license agreement. The license agreement clearly states that content which is HDCP encrypted may not be decrypted and sent out in any decrypted form digitally or sent out via analog (i.e. it must be reencrypted for output).
Devices like the MUX and HDFury are "grey market" devices if you will. They are using chips that are either older or obtain under the umbrella of another company. Either the chip maker or the actually licensing company has signed the agreement. They then use these chips in violation of the licence agreement.
As an aside, there was 1 version of the Lumagen software awhile back that was "broken". I.e. it did not disable the analog outputs ever. That was quickly patched so that they would not be in violation of the license agreement. There are versions of this floating about (can't remember the actual version), but installing that would lose some of the goodness that was added since that release.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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picree
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 351
Location: Johnson City, TN
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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Dave-I guess diplomacy isn't one of your strengths  . Sigh...he's not an idiot. Try to be nice OK? He does post here often and he's pretty sharp ('cept that sometimes he skips ahead too quickly in the manual and he's quick to jump to conclusions  ).
Anyways, neither of my current sources have HDCP (see my sig). For a BD I suppose I would prefer keeping the signal all digital and avoiding the DA conversion in the Fury so I'd opt for a Mux. Any preference here Dave?
Also, I've already got an external moome (older model) and one of the BG-DVI boxes that the Fury was based upon. Both would need a breakout cable. Any preferences here?
Would this be your order of preference and where would the Mux fit in?:
HDFury
BG-DVI
moome
_________________
MAIN THEATER: (JVC RS2000; Yamaha UDP-LX500; Yamaha RX-V2400; Lumagen Radiance Pro, Vertex)
SECOND WII-ATER: (BG808; WII; Oppo 971H; Moome external box; BG-DVI transcoder; tse gamma box; Extron)
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CRT_Ben
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 1684
Location: Northern Virginia
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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| picree wrote: | Dave-I guess diplomacy isn't one of your strengths . Sigh...he's not an idiot. Try to be nice OK? He does post here often and he's pretty sharp ('cept that sometimes he skips ahead too quickly in the manual and he's quick to jump to conclusions ).
Anyways, neither of my current sources have HDCP (see my sig). For a BD I suppose I would prefer keeping the signal all digital and avoiding the DA conversion in the Fury so I'd opt for a Mux. Any preference here Dave?
Also, I've already got an external moome (older model) and one of the BG-DVI boxes that the Fury was based upon. Both would need a breakout cable. Any preferences here?
Would this be your order of preference and where would the Mux fit in?:
HDFury
BG-DVI
moome |
Sorry but every implementation of HDMI out there uses HDCP. Absolutely no licensed device will work HDMI in -> RGBHV out. You're confusing HDCP with Blu-ray's yet to be set Image Constraint Token (ICT).
Edit: I stand corrected on the Oppo, but Oppo likes to break the rules anyways - upscaling over VGA wasn't allowed either and they did that. Here's a Crutchfield link to your Samsung OTA box that says it uses HDCP: http://www.crutchfield.com/S-g8xnZR8JjUR/p_305DTBH260/Samsung-DTB-H260F.html
Last edited by CRT_Ben on Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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| picree wrote: | | Dave-I guess diplomacy isn't one of your strengths . Sigh...he's not an idiot. Try to be nice OK? He does post here often and he's pretty sharp ('cept that sometimes he skips ahead too quickly in the manual and he's quick to jump to conclusions ). |
I'm so nice I'm dripping with sugar. But, the manual is quite clear and this has been discussed here and on AVS (among other sites) to DEATH. Anyway, moving on....
| picree wrote: | | Anyways, neither of my current sources have HDCP (see my sig). For a BD I suppose I would prefer keeping the signal all digital and avoiding the DA conversion in the Fury so I'd opt for a Mux. Any preference here Dave? |
Your source is digital, your display is analog. There WILL be at least one DA conversion--period. The point is to avoid additional conversions. So, you don't want analog to the scaler becase that is:
DA in source -> A/D in scaler -> DA prior to display.
DA ain't so bad--it is not lossy. A/D--BAD, BAD, BAD. It is lossy. It is not THAT bad if there is also a good scaler involved and you are downscaling--but if not downscaling, I would not do it if at all possible.
So, you want the conversion somewhere between the scaler and the PJ's RGBHV circuit. Many want to keep this conversion as close to the PJ as possible and inside of it if possible. Personally, I did the conversion with an HDFury on the component side (right after the Lumagen) and could not tell the difference between it there or next to the PJ. So, if you have analog lines already run, you can do it there. Just bear in mind that most of these devices cannot drive the analog line, so you will need a line driver like Kim's. Which brings me to:
| picree wrote: | | Also, I've already got an external moome (older model) and one of the BG-DVI boxes that the Fury was based upon. Both would need a breakout cable. Any preferences here? |
By old moome, I assume you mean the orginal DVI black box one? If so, that is the worst of these devices I ever used. It was a bit soft and it COULD NOT drive analog cables. By BG-DVI, I assume you mean the little black box that attaches to port 3. If so, why do you need a breakout cable? It attaches right to port there. The original fury was sort of based upon Jean's earlier work, but he told me that he did improve the design on the original Fury and I compared the BG-DVI to the original Fury and the Fury was better.
The other option is Greg's port 3 card if he is still making it, but he is asking way too much for that unless he has lowered his prices quite a bit.
| picree wrote: | | Would this be your order of preference and where would the Mux fit in?: |
Although I have tested about everyone of these devices, I never tested the MUX and I'm out of it now so unlikely I ever will, so I cannot provide and opinion on whether the MUX or the Fury2 is better.
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Dave
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jantje112
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 328
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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I heared many times the lumagen enables RGBHV with hdcp sources if there is an hdcp device on hdmi. So you can connect the moome and use the rgbhv output.
Never tested myself
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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I have not tried to use the RGBHV outs while using the DVI out as well to my Moome internal card on my Marquee I could test it for shits and giggles.
But the MUX-HD is all digital in and out and it has two outputs which is great for me cause i am using it for a blend. It can also supposedly pass YUV, but my unit i think is one of the first shipped and it has an issue with it. But the newer ones should have it, make sure moome checks that it has the latest software.
Athaasios
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:13 am Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | | I have not tried to use the RGBHV outs while using the DVI out as well to my Moome internal card on my Marquee I could test it for shits and giggles. |
That does not work. I've never hear of that. It is counter to the HDCP licensing agreement, the manual, and the way Jim says it works.
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Dave
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picree
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 351
Location: Johnson City, TN
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| Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:00 am Post subject: |
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Hmmm...The Samsung manual (read cover to cover) doesn't make any mention of HDCP that I could find...but OK. I guess I'm getting confused. Is the HDCP something implemented via the broadcasters and BD providers (and are they doing it) or is the HDCP in the equipment hardware and is it implemented irrespective of the input status? Is it also implemented on upconverting DVD players too?
| Person99 wrote: | Your source is digital, your display is analog. There WILL be at least one DA conversion--period. The point is to avoid additional conversions. So, you don't want analog to the scaler becase that is:
DA in source -> A/D in scaler -> DA prior to display. |
So one option is digital out of the sources and into the Lumagen. Out of the Lumagen DVI and us an HDFury (with an external power supply I suppose).
Or another option is what Athanasios has suggested: digital out of the sources (the Oppo is DVI which may be the one w/out HDCP that Ben referred to). Through something like the MUX to the Lumagen and then out RGBHV.
| Person99 wrote: | | ...By BG-DVI, I assume you mean the little black box that attaches to port 3. If so, why do you need a breakout cable? It attaches right to port there. |
Sorry, I didn't mention but I modded the jumper inside the BG-DVI so it would work off of 5V DVI power instead of the 30V TTL power. Right now it's plugged right into my Extron in the stack. So, I would have to buy a 30' dvi cable to get the digital signal to the projector. I'm also concerned about sparkles as well as having to pull another cable through the ceiling rafters, etc, etc...
All good ideas everyone. I'll have to think about it. The WAF is VERY low right now so buying another gadget is going to have to be done on the sly...r-e-a-l-l-y sly.
EDIT: After a little research it looks like the CT flag not yet turned on for OTA HD nor yet for BluRay disk for that matter. Concur?
_________________
MAIN THEATER: (JVC RS2000; Yamaha UDP-LX500; Yamaha RX-V2400; Lumagen Radiance Pro, Vertex)
SECOND WII-ATER: (BG808; WII; Oppo 971H; Moome external box; BG-DVI transcoder; tse gamma box; Extron)
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:39 am Post subject: |
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| picree wrote: |
Hmmm...The Samsung manual (read cover to cover) doesn't make any mention of HDCP that I could find...but OK. I guess I'm getting confused. Is the HDCP something implemented via the broadcasters and BD providers (and are they doing it) or is the HDCP in the equipment hardware and is it implemented irrespective of the input status? Is it also implemented on upconverting DVD players too? |
HDCP is on the wire encryption (check wikipedia for a description). It is not in the content, that has other protection schemes. It is added by the source prior to transmission.
Manuals used to talk about it in the beggining, but not much anymore as virutally no end user cares (all new displays and almost all currently in use displays are HDCP compatible).
Upconverting DVD players are supposed to HDCP upconverted content. No content above 480p can be sent out non-encrypted or via analog (a few devices here and there broke the rules but not many).
BD players cannot send above (I think it is) 540p if the contraint flag is set.
If a source has an HDMI port--it has HDCP (the two are licensed together). If it has a DVI port it most likely has HDCP but not always.
| picree wrote: | | Person99 wrote: | Your source is digital, your display is analog. There WILL be at least one DA conversion--period. The point is to avoid additional conversions. So, you don't want analog to the scaler becase that is:
DA in source -> A/D in scaler -> DA prior to display. |
So one option is digital out of the sources and into the Lumagen. Out of the Lumagen DVI and us an HDFury (with an external power supply I suppose).
Or another option is what Athanasios has suggested: digital out of the sources (the Oppo is DVI which may be the one w/out HDCP that Ben referred to). Through something like the MUX to the Lumagen and then out RGBHV. |
I think the MUX has an unencrypted DVI output, right? If so, then yes, you can effectively "strip" HDCP before the Lumagen which will let its analog ports be active, or use an HDCP digital to analog device after the Lumagen. Those are the options.
| picree wrote: | | Person99 wrote: | | ...By BG-DVI, I assume you mean the little black box that attaches to port 3. If so, why do you need a breakout cable? It attaches right to port there. |
Sorry, I didn't mention but I modded the jumper inside the BG-DVI so it would work off of 5V DVI power instead of the 30V TTL power. Right now it's plugged right into my Extron in the stack. So, I would have to buy a 30' dvi cable to get the digital signal to the projector. I'm also concerned about sparkles as well as having to pull another cable through the ceiling rafters, etc, etc...
All good ideas everyone. I'll have to think about it. The WAF is VERY low right now so buying another gadget is going to have to be done on the sly...r-e-a-l-l-y sly. |
OK, now I'm totally effing confused. You have a BG-DVI that is plugged into an extron which then drives RGBHV cables to the PJ? If so, what the hell is this post about (no offense)?
Plug the source with HDMI/DVI into the Lumagen's DVI inputs and plug the Lumagen's DVI output into the BG-DVI. Your done! So your chain looks like this:
sources -> Lumagen (DVI) -> BG-DVI -> Extron -> PJ
That is exactly the set up I ran with for over a year!
| picree wrote: | | EDIT: After a little research it looks like HDCP is not yet turned on for OTA HD and for the Oppo (nor yet for BluRay disk for that matter). Concur? |
Sort of. OTA HD does not have to be HDCP encrypted (its friggen free TV--so nothing to protect!). As for BD, that is not quite right. The HDMI output is HDCP. The analog outputs also work, but not at 1080p/24 (only 1080i, 720p, and 480p for HD content). It is the constraint flag on the disc that turns off the analog outputs for HD content and nobody has starting using it yet.
But, just because you can use the analog output of your BD player, you don't want to if you are sending it to the Lumagen. Why?
1) The Lumagen will have to do an A/D conversion--BAB, BAD, BAD (read my above post).
2) The source is 1080p/24 and the Lumagen can accept that. You want the Lumagen to be the only processor in the chain, therefore, you should send everything to it in the source's native format where possible, and BD sources only send 1080p/24 on the HDMI output.
Now, you REALLY want 1080p/24 if you are a "1080i" guy (i.e. you run your PJ at 1080i). Why? Because the Lumagen can send out a frame locked 1080i/72 or 1080i/96 signal from the 1080p/24 source. Smooth pans just like in the movie theater!
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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picree
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 351
Location: Johnson City, TN
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| Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:51 am Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | OK, now I'm totally effing confused. You have a BG-DVI that is plugged into an extron which then drives RGBHV cables to the PJ? If so, what the hell is this post about (no offense)?
Plug the source with HDMI/DVI into the Lumagen's DVI inputs and plug the Lumagen's DVI output into the BG-DVI. Your done! So your chain looks like this:
sources -> Lumagen (DVI) -> BG-DVI -> Extron -> PJ
That is exactly the set up I ran with for over a year! |
Sure I could do that. Yes, I was using the BG-DVI to convert DVI to RGB (and strip HDCP too I guess) and then using the Extron to drive the cable.
I started this thread because now that I bought a Lumi I thought I could have an absolutely clean signal path from the source into the Lumi (DVI) and then RGBHV direct to the Barco...nice...clean...sweet.
I didn't see the point in having anything else in the chain after the Lumagen to degrade the signal. I figured, why spend all the money on a Lumi and then stick a bunch of stuff in there I shouldn't need. Previous to this I tried using the BG-DVI but it wasn't as useful as the moome because it just passed through both (+) and (-) sync to the Barco. I had one device that had (+) sync and one that had (-) sync. And I don't think the Extron had a setting to force the output to (-) sync (or whichever one the Barco likes). So that whole setup didn't work too good. Without the Lumi, I"m currently using the moome.
Things are different now w/ the Lumi I suppose but wouldn't the BG-DVI and the Extron be just two more things that would get in the way of a clean Lumi signal? If you had your choice would you use the MUX ahead of the Lumi instead of the BG-DVI/Extron?
Thanks for all the advice Dave. 
_________________
MAIN THEATER: (JVC RS2000; Yamaha UDP-LX500; Yamaha RX-V2400; Lumagen Radiance Pro, Vertex)
SECOND WII-ATER: (BG808; WII; Oppo 971H; Moome external box; BG-DVI transcoder; tse gamma box; Extron)
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:12 am Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | You know the lumi can output what ever polarity sync you need, + or - or any combination. so ditch the extron and use the BG-DVI and Lumi together, right Dave?
Athanasios |
If he is using the MUX he could do that. If he saves money for now and uses his existing stuff, the Extron can change the sync polarity for him.
Picree, what Extron are you using?
Back to Anthanasios' suggestion of using the MUX, that would certainly be the cleanest because it has the fewest devices in the path and no analog repeaters/boosters.
But I would say, you can use what you have now, then buy the MUX and you would not have to change any cable runs other than a few at the source.
Now, there is really only 1 disadvantage to using the MUX, but it is not that hard to overcome. Since all your sources will go to the MUX then from the MUX to the Lumagen, the Lumagen will see them all as the same source. That means to calibrate each of your sources properly, you will have to use the Lumagen's memory blocks. If you are not doing anything with aspect ratios and such, this should be OK as each input has 4 memory blocks.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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picree
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 351
Location: Johnson City, TN
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| Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:31 am Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | Nashou66 wrote: | You know the lumi can output what ever polarity sync you need, + or - or any combination. so ditch the extron and use the BG-DVI and Lumi together, right Dave?
Athanasios |
If he is using the MUX he could do that. If he saves money for now and uses his existing stuff, the Extron can change the sync polarity for him.
Picree, what Extron are you using?
Back to Anthanasios' suggestion of using the MUX, that would certainly be the cleanest because it has the fewest devices in the path and no analog repeaters/boosters.
But I would say, you can use what you have now, then buy the MUX and you would not have to change any cable runs other than a few at the source.
Now, there is really only 1 disadvantage to using the MUX, but it is not that hard to overcome. Since all your sources will go to the MUX then from the MUX to the Lumagen, the Lumagen will see them all as the same source. That means to calibrate each of your sources properly, you will have to use the Lumagen's memory blocks. If you are not doing anything with aspect ratios and such, this should be OK as each input has 4 memory blocks. |
I have the Extron 202xi. It can do "Normal sync processing" or "LCD sync processing" but I don't think it will force it one way or the other. I was trying it with an HDMI switch and I could get one input to sync but the other wouldn't. I think normal is tracking and I don't know what LCD is. But it's moot isn't it because, the Lumi can force it right? So, in the end I could use what I have now and upgrade later if I wanted the cleanest signal path
Good point about the memory blocks.
_________________
MAIN THEATER: (JVC RS2000; Yamaha UDP-LX500; Yamaha RX-V2400; Lumagen Radiance Pro, Vertex)
SECOND WII-ATER: (BG808; WII; Oppo 971H; Moome external box; BG-DVI transcoder; tse gamma box; Extron)
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 4:04 am Post subject: |
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| picree wrote: | | Person99 wrote: | | Nashou66 wrote: | You know the lumi can output what ever polarity sync you need, + or - or any combination. so ditch the extron and use the BG-DVI and Lumi together, right Dave?
Athanasios |
If he is using the MUX he could do that. If he saves money for now and uses his existing stuff, the Extron can change the sync polarity for him.
Picree, what Extron are you using?
Back to Anthanasios' suggestion of using the MUX, that would certainly be the cleanest because it has the fewest devices in the path and no analog repeaters/boosters.
But I would say, you can use what you have now, then buy the MUX and you would not have to change any cable runs other than a few at the source.
Now, there is really only 1 disadvantage to using the MUX, but it is not that hard to overcome. Since all your sources will go to the MUX then from the MUX to the Lumagen, the Lumagen will see them all as the same source. That means to calibrate each of your sources properly, you will have to use the Lumagen's memory blocks. If you are not doing anything with aspect ratios and such, this should be OK as each input has 4 memory blocks. |
I have the Extron 202xi. It can do "Normal sync processing" or "LCD sync processing" but I don't think it will force it one way or the other. |
The 202xi can track polarity or force negative (negative is what the barco likes).
Look for the manual, I can't remember off the top of my head, but you set the dip switches for normal sync, sync output on, and you have to open it up and do or undo jumper 26 (which causes the force of negative sync). (Damn, sometimes I even impress myself with how much useless home theater knowledge I have accumulated!!!)
| picree wrote: | But it's moot isn't it because, the Lumi can force it right? So, in the end I could use what I have now and upgrade later if I wanted the cleanest signal path
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It is moot if you use the MUX. If you use what you have now, output from the Lumagen will be DVI (digital). I can't remember if the BG-DVI tracks (I think it does) or not from the digital which is sort of a different concept. But, the option to do it in the Extron exists if you need it.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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picree
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 351
Location: Johnson City, TN
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| Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 4:13 am Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | The 202xi can track polarity or force negative (negative is what the barco likes).
Look for the manual, I can't remember off the top of my head, but you set the dip switches for normal sync, sync output on, and you have to open it up and do or undo jumper 26 (which causes the force of negative sync). (Damn, sometimes I even impress myself with how much useless home theater knowledge I have accumulated!!!) |
Damn!! You are right! It IS in the manual!! Jumper out J26 to be exact! I had completely forgotten about that. Knowledge like that is not useless...it's quite useful! Thanks.
_________________
MAIN THEATER: (JVC RS2000; Yamaha UDP-LX500; Yamaha RX-V2400; Lumagen Radiance Pro, Vertex)
SECOND WII-ATER: (BG808; WII; Oppo 971H; Moome external box; BG-DVI transcoder; tse gamma box; Extron)
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