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Zebu Fellenz
Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 2567
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 11:58 am Post subject: Who uses a High Gain screen? |
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I'm thinking of treating myself to a better screen for christmas this year. I would like to get the best screen for my needs and ideally something that could be viewed with a small bit of ambaint light. I know some of you are using high-gain screens and I'd like to know what you think of them, I know you can have issues with off axis color shift and changing percieved brightness but it sounds like with the right setup the high gain can make up for these problems.
-gotta go, I'll finish this post later
Erik
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tri_joel
Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Posts: 646
Location: Northern Virginia
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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My Draper is rated at 2.3. At first I thought it made the colors off, but I have spent more time in setting up my PJ and am very pleased with it now. I don't notice any hot-spotting, but I'm still not sure what hot-spotting is exactly.
I hung my painted black-out curtain screen over half of my Draper, the Draper shows more detail and I will never go back to a lower gain screen. My contrast and brightness are set in 40's on my BG1208.
When I win calibrating give away at the end of the month, I can give you more details. 
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 3:34 pm Post subject: Re: Who uses a High Gain screen? |
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| Zebu Fellenz wrote: | I'm thinking of treating myself to a better screen for christmas this year. I would like to get the best screen for my needs and ideally something that could be viewed with a small bit of ambaint light. I know some of you are using high-gain screens and I'd like to know what you think of them, I know you can have issues with off axis color shift and changing percieved brightness but it sounds like with the right setup the high gain can make up for these problems.
-gotta go, I'll finish this post later
Erik |
I've never seen a high gain screen that I liked the look of unless you curve it and you are the only one watching (from dead center). If you are running something like a 92-96 inch wide screen and have a typical 3 row set up about 11' or so away from the screen, the people sitting on the two side seats will definately see fall off.
Of all the screens I tested, about the highest gain one I could tolerate was the Hurley 1.5 gain screen (the 1.8 had too much hot spotting and fall off for me). The best screen in the world for a CRT is simply the Stewart 130. A word about gain:
Stewarts gain rating is dead on.
Hurley's is pretty close to advertised.
DaLite's is a little optomistic (i.e. a 1.3 gain screen is really about 1.2).
Draper is close in optimism to DaLite (the true gain is usually 85-90 percent of what they say).
Carada and Screen Goo are flat out liars. Their screens gain is less than they say. For instance, Carada's 1.4 gain screen and Sceen Goo's 1.8 gain screen both measure at almost EXACTLY 1.0 gain.
FIW, IMO a mildly curved wilsonart screen looks as good or better than most screens you can build/buy for under $800. It has very mild hot spotting if you are over 12 ft lamberts, but almost unnoticeable under that.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| tri_joel wrote: | | I don't notice any hot-spotting, but I'm still not sure what hot-spotting is exactly. |
It is a brighter spot on the screen which may also have color shift. The easiest way to see a hot spot is a full white screen, but CRT's can't do bright full white screens (takes way too much energy). To, the easiest what would be to watch happy feet or ice age and in some of the brighter scenes, move around a bit. You'll notice one part of the screen is a bit brighter and as you move a couple feet in each direction, that bright spot moves around also.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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One last comment, once you start getting into high gain screens you need to find out if they are retro-reflective or not. Retro-reflective are for use with table mounted PJs.
Also, because of the light output of a CRT and the black level, you will never get a very watchable picture with much ambient light--it is just the nature of the beast. I know one guy that switched to digital a couple years ago simply because he wanted to be able to do about 50% of his viewing with low ambient light and the CRT looked awful in that setting.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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CRT_Ben
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 1684
Location: Northern Virginia
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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In my current apartment, I run my PJ floor mounted with a smallish (67" wide) Da-lite Hi-Power. It works reasonably well for ambient light but I have a EyeOne Display LT and I haven't even tried to calibrate the projector yet, because it's going to be a somewhat worthless exercise IMO. The color shifting and uniformity is, to me, unacceptable for a "real" theater screen and when I move into the house we just bought, I'm probably going with wilsonart. Besides, you can't have a ceiling mounted PJ with the Hi-Power (it's a retroflective screen as Dave mentioned). Personally I would stay away from high gain screens if you care about color and uniformity, and save ambient light viewing for another TV if at all possible.
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tri_joel
Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Posts: 646
Location: Northern Virginia
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | tri_joel wrote:
I don't notice any hot-spotting, but I'm still not sure what hot-spotting is exactly.
It is a brighter spot on the screen which may also have color shift. The easiest way to see a hot spot is a full white screen, but CRT's can't do bright full white screens (takes way too much energy). To, the easiest what would be to watch happy feet or ice age and in some of the brighter scenes, move around a bit. You'll notice one part of the screen is a bit brighter and as you move a couple feet in each direction, that bright spot moves around also. |
I guess I don't have hot spotting then. The 2.3 gain is Draper's rating, so I believe it is closer to 2.0. The screen is also old, and I believe has yellowed slightly, which probably also lowers the gain.
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Vibe
Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 164
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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I have a Draper M2500 that is excellent with ambient light. We can watch it while the fluorescent lights from the kitchen (right next to the media room) are on. It is much better when lights are out of course, and If light hits the screen directly forget about it. But with diffused lights on in the other room it is still very watchable. Contrast at 40, brightness 55, 8 ft wide.
The M2500 is retro-reflective so it is best used with a floor/table mounted pj. Mine is hanging from a shelving unit behind the seats because we did not want that big thing in the middle of the floor. We have cathedral ceilings so we don't want to hang it from the ceiling either. This seemed like a great solution. The lenses are about 6 ft from the floor making it close to the same viewing angle it would be if it was floor mounted so I am still getting the benefit of the retro-reflection. I do not see any hotspotting or drop off with wider viewing angles with the M2500. You als don't see the screen texture like some others I have seen. Seating is about 9.5 ft (1.2 x screen width) from the screen. So I think the M2500 fabric is a excellent choice for CRT projectors.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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| tri_joel wrote: | | Quote: | tri_joel wrote:
I don't notice any hot-spotting, but I'm still not sure what hot-spotting is exactly.
It is a brighter spot on the screen which may also have color shift. The easiest way to see a hot spot is a full white screen, but CRT's can't do bright full white screens (takes way too much energy). To, the easiest what would be to watch happy feet or ice age and in some of the brighter scenes, move around a bit. You'll notice one part of the screen is a bit brighter and as you move a couple feet in each direction, that bright spot moves around also. |
I guess I don't have hot spotting then. The 2.3 gain is Draper's rating, so I believe it is closer to 2.0. The screen is also old, and I believe has yellowed slightly, which probably also lowers the gain. |
Are you ceiling or floor mounted? If it is a retro-reflective surface (which is most likely is) and your PJ is ceiling mounted, then it is really about a 1.0 gain screen. In this case you will not have hotspotting and such.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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tri_joel
Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Posts: 646
Location: Northern Virginia
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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I have the older version of the M2500 Vibe talks about above. Ceiling mounted, so I guess I'm near 1.0? That would make sense, but why would there be such an extreme difference when I hang my painted black-out screen which should be about a 1.0 also?
I'll see if I can a get a pic this weekend with the blackout curtain and Draper together.
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www.vawinesnob.com
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| tri_joel wrote: | | I have the older version of the M2500 Vibe talks about above. Ceiling mounted, so I guess I'm near 1.0? That would make sense, but why would there be such an extreme difference when I hang my painted black-out screen which should be about a 1.0 also? |
"Painted black-out screen" means what? BO cloth is under 1.0 gain, closer to .85-.9. Paint rarely exceeds 1.0 and is usually under 1.0. Your M2500 should be getting near the gain of wilsonart in your current config. Get a sample of that and see if it looks the same.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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tri_joel
Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Posts: 646
Location: Northern Virginia
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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It's done this way:
http://www.curtpalme.com/Building_a_Screen1.shtm
I've never tested it, but I assumed I would be somewhere in 1.0 to 1.2 range. It's "brighter" than paper, and not as "bright" as the Draper screen.
I wanted to build a Wisonart screen, but I stumbled onto this Draper. I don't want to compare the Draper to Wilsonart, I'm afraid I'll like the Wilsonart more and never be satisfied with my Draper again. Then I would have to tear out my book cases. 
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tri_joel
Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Posts: 646
Location: Northern Virginia
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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Didn't mean to hijack your thread Zebu. 
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Zebu Fellenz
Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 2567
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| tri_joel wrote: | | Didn't mean to hijack your thread Zebu. |
Don't sweat it 
Anway,
I'm most interested in hearing about the Draper M2500, my G70 is mounted overhead 6' to the center of the lenses. Going by other threads here it looks like this will still give me reasonably high percieved gain.
The other option I've been considering is Wilsonart DW, I really like the durability of the material and 1.3 gain is much more than the "wall" I have now
Choices, choices 
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Zebu Fellenz wrote: | | tri_joel wrote: | | Didn't mean to hijack your thread Zebu. |
Don't sweat it
Anway,
I'm most interested in hearing about the Draper M2500, my G70 is mounted overhead 6' to the center of the lenses. Going by other threads here it looks like this will still give me reasonably high percieved gain.
The other option I've been considering is Wilsonart DW, I really like the durability of the material and 1.3 gain is much more than the "wall" I have now
Choices, choices |
The wilsonart will match or exceed the gain you will get from M2500 with a ceiling mount projector. As the G70 sits sort of close to the screen, the problem you will have with any positive gain screens is some visible color shift within the small hotspot (if you watch ice age for instance, there will be a small bright spot which will shift red to one side and blue to the other). About the only positive gain screen which will significantly diminish this is the Stewart 130.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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I thought M2500 was angular reflective??
If it is, then it's a pretty good match for a ceiling-mount, though you might have some hotspotting unless you curve it.
Retro-reflective screens do not hotspot in the normal sense. Due to the way light reflects from them, you can actually have brighter reflection on the far side of the screen than on the near side!
Either retro- or angular-reflective screens, with high gain, should work relatively well in ambient light -- particularly lights off to the side. The retro screen has highest gain for light sources close to your eyes (which is why it doesn't work well with ceiling mounts), so other than lights directly behind you, the screen will have low gain for other ambient light. Angular screens bounce light sort of like a mirror, so unless the ambient light source is at a point where it would bounce into your eyes (e.g. where your projector hangs!) then the light will mostly bounce off at another angle.
Dave is right that CRTs or any other low-lumen projectors are going to have trouble with ambient light no matter what the screen. Even high-gain screens are usually pretty white, which means ambient light will light it up the same way it will light up a white wall, and that will wash out your image. But it will be less of a problem than it would be with a low-gain screen.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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| garyfritz wrote: | | I thought M2500 was angular reflective?? |
Yeah, I thought it was about the only over 2 gain screen that was angular--though I don't remember. I remember it having hotspotting.
| garyfritz wrote: | | If it is, then it's a pretty good match for a ceiling-mount, though you might have some hotspotting unless you curve it. |
The problem with curving a high gain screen is you end up with increasing the angle for the side of the screen that side viewers on on which will really increase the fall off. I think M2500 is down to about a 1.0 gain at a 20 degree angle.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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| CRT_Ben wrote: | | In my current apartment, I run my PJ floor mounted with a smallish (67" wide) Da-lite Hi-Power. It works reasonably well for ambient light but I have a EyeOne Display LT and I haven't even tried to calibrate the projector yet, because it's going to be a somewhat worthless exercise IMO. The color shifting and uniformity is, to me, unacceptable for a "real" theater screen and when I move into the house we just bought, I'm probably going with wilsonart. Besides, you can't have a ceiling mounted PJ with the Hi-Power (it's a retroflective screen as Dave mentioned). Personally I would stay away from high gain screens if you care about color and uniformity, and save ambient light viewing for another TV if at all possible. |
That is interesting, as I thought the HiPower shouldn't have that bad of a problem.
| Person99 wrote: |
FIW, IMO a mildly curved wilsonart screen looks as good or better than most screens you can build/buy for under $800. It has very mild hot spotting if you are over 12 ft lamberts, but almost unnoticeable under that. |
| Zebu Fellenz wrote: | | tri_joel wrote: | | Didn't mean to hijack your thread Zebu. |
Don't sweat it
Anway,
I'm most interested in hearing about the Draper M2500, my G70 is mounted overhead 6' to the center of the lenses. Going by other threads here it looks like this will still give me reasonably high percieved gain.
The other option I've been considering is Wilsonart DW, I really like the durability of the material and 1.3 gain is much more than the "wall" I have now
Choices, choices |
Everyone might want to be careful with the Wilsonart DW, especially since I invented it (I had to throw that in for Dave ). The problem with DW is QC from what I have seen. There have been some people who have gotten a good piece of laminate and others who have gotten a piece that was as glossy as a mirror. I saw one that hotspotted horribly and was essentially unusable. I told the owner to curve it, but he didn't want to and went with another screen. I saw some of this in the original samples I tested, but I didn't give it much thought till I saw that previous full screen. My advice is be careful when purchasing DW and maybe make sure you have a return policy. If you want to try painting, then some of the guys over at htshack have been experimenting with ambient light screens although most of those owners have digitals.
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jkv
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Posts: 34
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 12:43 am Post subject: |
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I have a Stewart MicroPerf with a 2.0 gain and I love the image it displays.
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Mr. Green
Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Posts: 1394
Location: Calgary
TV/Projector: Marquee 9501LC / NEC 9PG+
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 1:25 am Post subject: Re: Who uses a High Gain screen? |
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| Zebu Fellenz wrote: | I'm thinking of treating myself to a better screen for christmas this year. I would like to get the best screen for my needs and ideally something that could be viewed with a small bit of ambaint light. I know some of you are using high-gain screens and I'd like to know what you think of them, I know you can have issues with off axis color shift and changing percieved brightness but it sounds like with the right setup the high gain can make up for these problems.
-gotta go, I'll finish this post later
Erik |
I've got an Elunevision 120" 4:3 (2.4 gain - no hotspots). I love it. Makes a nice 3d punchy image. I think my 9PG+ throws a lot less light than your G70 though. Still you could just turn the bright down a bit.
http://www.eastporters.com/estore/cart.php?target=product&product_id=111&category_id=33
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You can be young only once but, you can be immature forever.
Current Projector Marquee9501LC with PS3 (BLu-Ray) at 1080P LOVE IT! Screen is an Elunevision 120" 4:3 (2.4 gain - no hotspots). (also own a NEC 9PG+)
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