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tri_joel
Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Posts: 646
Location: Northern Virginia
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:42 am Post subject: How to improve SD FiOs |
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Finally got through all of my non-working stuff. The BG 1208/2 is hung on the ceiling and all set up. The RTC 2200 has been repaired. The HDFury Gamer edition is working again. With help from the experts here I was able to get my blocks set up for my three different sources (HD-DVD at 1080p (and yes I can see a difference between 1080p and 1080i, but just on the HD-DVD), the PS3 runs at 1080i as does the HD channels on FiOS, and the SD channels are doing whatever it is the Motorola box is supposed to do. If I run the SD channels through the fury then I get scan lines, if I run the SD channels through 2200's component then no scan lines but a very soft picture. So what's the problem you may ask? Well, Versus on FiOS is only SD, no HD channel for Versus and the Tour de France is only a month away.
Any ideas on the best way to upconvert the SD channels without spending a small fortune? I have a Crystalview VS2 that component is not working on. Svideo still works okay on it but I found that fast motion did funny things, artifacts I think they are called?
All ideas accepted and considered, no matter how crazy!
Peace,
Joel
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barcoguy
Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 128
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 2:57 am Post subject: |
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HTPC.... You can get a cheap ATI AIW 9600 AGP card that has a built in SD cable tv tuner it will spit out whatever resolution your computer is running.
Or just get any PC tv tuner card will probably do it. That is what I have. Its old but works well.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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dbaisey
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 821
Location: Southern Cal LA / Seattle WA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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Joel,
I think I remember this from before but was this a format thing with this box or was it that it couldn't be forced to output one freq? ie: SD upconverted to 1080I? Doug
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 2:55 pm Post subject: Re: How to improve SD FiOs |
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| tri_joel wrote: | | no scan lines but a very soft picture. |
That's simply up-converted SD on a large screen! It sucks ass. Period.
We're all spoiled rotten now with beautiful HD images from HD DVD an Blu-ray. That SD digital signal you're trying to watch is a filtered, processed, compressed 720x480 or 640x480. You're just not going to make it 8' wide and have it look good. It's a sow's ear/silk purse thing.
SC
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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First, SD from any source other than DVD will never look good on a projector. I and many others will not watch SD other than DVD for this reason--we tend to watch it on our "normal" TV.
That said, the FiOS box is crap at any scaling. You can output SD on the digital output at only 480p (no 480i). So, your best bet is to feed s-video from the box to a decent scaler and output 720p to the projector.
The prices of scaler is likely about to fall if the Gefen is any good (I'm not holding my breath). For now, a Lumagen HDP will do most things you could want for about $750. A Lumgen DVI will have some limitations, but would scale your SD for you for under $350 if you can find one. If your primary concern is video sourced material, than you might want to look into a used DVDO as their video performance is decent.
But, in the end, broadcase SD is going to look like crap--that is just the way it is.
As an aside, simple physics dictates that 1080p can never be as sharp as 1080i due to the bandwidth requirements. Further, the Toshiba HD DVD players apply no vertical filtering to the 1080i output, thus 1080i has the exact same pixels outputted as 1080p. If 1080p looks better on your set up for any reason other than scan line visibility on white fields, then there is something wonky in your set up.
_________________
Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | Further, the Toshiba HD DVD players apply no vertical filtering to the 1080i output, thus 1080i has the exact same pixels outputted as 1080p. |
That's not entirely true, Dave - at least not if you mean 1080i/29.97. I'll assume you do, since you reference the Toshiba players and no outboard scaling.
With a film-based source running 1080i, even if the source player isn't applying any vertical filtering, the effect of 3:2 pulldown means you're going to have some vertical resolution loss. True, it's a temporal thing, and not there all the time, but it's there. Every 5 frames of video, there are going to be 2 frames which are essentially a mix of two different film frames. The net effect is that 60% of the time, you'll the have the full vertical resolution of the original film frames, and 40% of the time, you'll have a mix of two different frames. The motion is smoother than with 60p, but there is definitely a visual deficiency compared to an all-progressive playback.
SC
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Heywood Jablome
Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 1548
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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Chip (stefuel) is using a Rock scaler for SD at 960p from his FiOS, for the same reason.
_________________
"Those countries which lag behind in industry, in the application of mechanics and technical chemistry, in the careful selection and utilization of natural products, where the respect for such activities does not permeate all classes of society, will unfailingly decline in prosperity. They will sink faster when neighbor states, with an energetic exchange between science and industry, go forward with renewed vitality."
-- Baron Alexander von Humboldt: 1769-1859
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | Person99 wrote: | | Further, the Toshiba HD DVD players apply no vertical filtering to the 1080i output, thus 1080i has the exact same pixels outputted as 1080p. |
That's not entirely true, Dave - at least not if you mean 1080i/29.97. I'll assume you do, since you reference the Toshiba players and no outboard scaling.
With a film-based source running 1080i, even if the source player isn't applying any vertical filtering, the effect of 3:2 pulldown means you're going to have some vertical resolution loss. True, it's a temporal thing, and not there all the time, but it's there. Every 5 frames of video, there are going to be 2 frames which are essentially a mix of two different film frames. The net effect is that 60% of the time, you'll the have the full vertical resolution of the original film frames, and 40% of the time, you'll have a mix of two different frames. The motion is smoother than with 60p, but there is definitely a visual deficiency compared to an all-progressive playback.
SC |
There is some motion dependent resolution, but it REALLY has to be in a sweet spot of motion to not be too fast for your eye to be able to track anyway. So, you are trading sharpness 90% of the time for a lack of reduction in resolution 5% of the time. 1080i/96 really helps this because it both eliminates judder and reduces the amount of time 2 different frames are rendered, but the difference is pretty minor.
But, your brain does not work like you seem to think it does. If it really processed the information the way you are representing it, you would see combing ALL THE TIME. You don't seem combing on every object in motion do you? Why is that? According to your statements, 40% of the time objects in motion would have combing--but they don't. I've watched hundreds of hours of 1080p sourced HD at 1080i--never seen combing. How is that?
_________________
Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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tri_joel
Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Posts: 646
Location: Northern Virginia
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe it's because my eyes don't do math. 
More likely just because I think it looks better therefor it does. It is a Toshiba, A3 I think. I am comparing it to the PS3 which, in my opinion, is much better at upconverting SD DVDs. I wish I could plug my SD channels into the PS3 and use it as a scaler!
Thank you for the responses. I think I'm going to try setting the FiOS STB at a lower resolution, maybe 720p and setting up a new block. It's not difficult to change the resolution, just a lot of button pushing. I only need to do for 21 days in July so I can watch Contador win the Tour. I just don't watch much television, especially SD channels.
I may also check out the scaler Stefeul uses.
Peace,
Joel
Just had a crazy idea. Maybe I'll record the races on DVD and play them through the PS3.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| tri_joel wrote: |
I may also check out the scaler Stefeul uses. |
Chip's scaler is a discontinued product from a dead company.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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| tri_joel wrote: | | I think I'm going to try setting the FiOS STB at a lower resolution, maybe 720p |
Uh, like I said, the scaler in the Motorola box sucks. I didn't say it sucks at all resolutions but 720p, I said it sucks. Compounded on this is the suckiness of the source (as SC mentioned). But hey, this is kind of why I'll probably stop responding to posts--what's the point?
To that end, I'm just curious--and I don't mean this as blunt as it sound, but what was the point of the post since you are ignoring all advice? Since our responses are of no value, why bother posting if you're just to ignore the responses?
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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| dbaisey wrote: | Joel,
I think I remember this from before but was this a format thing with this box or was it that it couldn't be forced to output one freq? ie: SD upconverted to 1080I? Doug |
Doug, you might be thinking of the issue where this box cannot be configured to just output the native rate of the stream.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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tri_joel
Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Posts: 646
Location: Northern Virginia
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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I'm sorry. I thought I responded. I can't say that I understand 3:2 pulldown, refresh rates and all that stuff to make intelligent responses. My understanding, yes more than likely wrong, is that scaling it to a lower resolution might improve what I am seeing.
I hadn't responded to Doug's question yet because, well darnit I don't understand what the hell the FiOS box is doing so I was going to check it out later.
What advice did I miss? I will admit I didn't read each and every word of all the posts, it seemed to be discussions about the difference between 1080p and 1080i, which I don't think is advice on how to improve my SD programming for one channel in July.
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Heywood Jablome
Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 1548
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | tri_joel wrote: |
I may also check out the scaler Stefeul uses. |
Chip's scaler is a discontinued product from a dead company. |
Yeah... trying to be useful when I've got too little time to type a proper response!
Chip'll probably ring in on this.
The TAW Rock is a good little PC based scaler with a control and On Screen Display application running in Windows 98 and a multi-IO hardware scaler on a PCI card. I believe the hardware scaler is pretty much the same as the Key Digital HDLeeza.
I also believe Chip used it because he happened to own it, and was VERY unhappy with the FiOS box's internal scaling (if any) on his 9"LC.
_________________
"Those countries which lag behind in industry, in the application of mechanics and technical chemistry, in the careful selection and utilization of natural products, where the respect for such activities does not permeate all classes of society, will unfailingly decline in prosperity. They will sink faster when neighbor states, with an energetic exchange between science and industry, go forward with renewed vitality."
-- Baron Alexander von Humboldt: 1769-1859
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tri_joel
Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Posts: 646
Location: Northern Virginia
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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I don't own a PC, so I guess it's out of the question anyway.
Peace,
Joel
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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No, Joel - it doesn't install in a PC, it's PC-based. Meaning, it's an integrated, out-of-the-box solution - no fuss, no muss. It's just built around a PC - right from the manufacturer - and running Windows 98... Which tells you a little something about the age of the hardware.
SC
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tri_joel
Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Posts: 646
Location: Northern Virginia
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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Okay. Please be patient with me, this stuff is all new to me, and I'll be the first to admit how ignorant I am.
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perisoft
Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 2920
Location: Ithaca, NY
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 4:35 am Post subject: Re: How to improve SD FiOs |
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| tri_joel wrote: | | Well, Versus on FiOS is only SD, no HD channel for Versus and the Tour de France is only a month away. |
Couldn't you just go downtown and watch people take drugs there instead? 
As for upscaling SD... yeah, it's going to be soft. If you ran it through a PC, with a bunch of work you might be able to get it looking as good as it can, but it won't be great. And to be honest, if you don't even own a PC, the level of tech work you're going to be capable of putting in isn't going to allow for much more than you've got now.
My advice would be to find a good RPTV or smaller plasma, 40 to 50", and put it 12' away or so. You won't get a huge field of view, but it'll look about as good as you can make SD TV look. If the broadcast is letterboxed, find a display that will let you zoom it. I use a 42" 852x480 plasma for SD TV and it looks quite a bit better than a very high resolution display - my best guess is that the eye is better at 'explaining away' problems in the display medium itself than in the image. SNES games on a 35" SD TV via s-video look just fine; run them on a 40" 1080p plasma and they'll probably look a lot worse even though the display's capability is better.
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tri_joel
Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Posts: 646
Location: Northern Virginia
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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I have to admit I'm a bit gunshy about posting anything here now. Everyone had good ideas, I just should have worded my question differently. Once I get a chance to check out different resolutions, I'll post the results. I was asking for ways to improve the picture, not perfect it. I was hoping to get some responses that related to settings or set-up.
perisoft - I like your joke. There are declared drug-free teams this year. One of the things I enjoy about watching the TdF is the scenery, which will not be as exciting on my 36" LCD from ten feet away.
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