| Author |
Message |
Blinx123
Joined: 24 Dec 2007
Posts: 97
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:10 pm Post subject: BARCO/SEOS 1208: possible to get scope without further mod? |
|
|
Hi guys,
I was informed that some Barcos need further modifcation before they can stretch the cinemascope picture of a DVD into the right place.
Is the BARCO/SEOS 1208 confirmed to work without those AAS modifications or do I need them?
Also: Is there another way for getting a proper 2.35:1 image? A software only way would be much appreciated (I'm using Zoomplayer/FFDSHOW and even got the picture into cinemascope but then there were the Zoomplayer black borders left).
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
All CRT's will do scope its just that you do not use all the phosphor since its a 4:3 tube. this is why many are Blending two projectors now to utilize all the crt phosphor.
but to use less bandwidth by not scaning the black bars on top and bottom you would need a Video Processor or the softwera on your pc. do a search on AVS for active area scaning. Craig rounds does a good explanation for this his screen name there is CIR_engineering i think.
Athanasios
_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
One Smart Dog!!!
Marquee High Performance Bellows now shipping!!
Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
Marquee C-element and Bellow removal
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:31 pm Post subject: Re: BARCO/SEOS 1208: possible to get scope without further m |
|
|
| Blinx123 wrote: | Hi guys,
I was informed that some Barcos need further modifcation before they can stretch the cinemascope picture of a DVD into the right place. |
Generally marquees need a modification, barcos do not.
| Blinx123 wrote: | | Is the BARCO/SEOS 1208 confirmed to work without those AAS modifications or do I need them? |
Seos machine can have radical mods for use on radical screens. Many times, these need to be undone before you can use it for home theater.
| Blinx123 wrote: | | Also: Is there another way for getting a proper 2.35:1 image? A software only way would be much appreciated (I'm using Zoomplayer/FFDSHOW and even got the picture into cinemascope but then there were the Zoomplayer black borders left). |
CRTs are generally not good choices for a CIH set up because you will not be able to resolve anything close to the 1920x1080 for a 16:9 image. In fact, on a 180 tubed 1208 set up for CIH, you will be lucky to get a 1200x650 16:9 image. A CRT does a CIA set up much better than CIH, but even then, I would probably not do a CIA with an 8" machine that did not have P16 tubes.
_________________
Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Blinx123
Joined: 24 Dec 2007
Posts: 97
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I'm already using a good software player.
What about if I crop and zoom the picture till there are no black bars left and then stretch it back with the projectors options? Would this work or would I still need the active area scanning mod in order to stretch the picture on that enormous ratio?
It's not about saving bandwidth for me so if you tell me that I won't miss any detail without using AAS and leaving the black bars where they are then I could possibly live with it.
But just one thing: How can I avoid burn ins with those black bars? Is there a "bar flicker option" or something like this built into Zoomplayer/FFDSHOW? I want to zoom the image up till the black borders exactly meet the outter black masking so it wouldn't be a problem if the bars flicker. They could flicker in all rainbow colours and even then I wouldn't care (except this would hurt my tubes in any way. Then I would of course care).
@Person99
I already know about those mods. My SEOS is already fully resolved into a BARCO so no problem for me.
BTW: Why wouldn't you use a non-P16 set for a CIA setup?
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Blinx123 wrote: |
BTW: Why wouldn't you use a non-P16 set for a CIA setup? |
Resolving power. In a pseudo-CIA set up based around a 2.05:1 screen, the 16:9 image will use about 85% of the available width of the phosphor. At this width, the 180s will not resolve near the 1920 horizontal resolution. If really well set up and in really good shape, I'm guessing it would be closer to 1600 and maybe even less. This is not horrible (which is why I didn't categorically say I wouldn't do it), but I'd have to see it and weigh the results against the percentage of 16:9 and 1.85 content I watch.
_________________
Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Blinx123 wrote: |
It's not about saving bandwidth for me so if you tell me that I won't miss any detail without using AAS and leaving the black bars where they are then I could possibly live with it. |
You won't loose detail, how could you possibly? But, your picture may be a touch sharper if you save the bandwidth.
| Blinx123 wrote: | | But just one thing: How can I avoid burn ins with those black bars? |
Black bars by definition will not cause burn in. Burn in is caused buy exciting the phosphors a lot, not a little.
_________________
Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Blinx123
Joined: 24 Dec 2007
Posts: 97
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Person99 wrote: | | Blinx123 wrote: |
It's not about saving bandwidth for me so if you tell me that I won't miss any detail without using AAS and leaving the black bars where they are then I could possibly live with it. |
You won't loose detail, how could you possibly? But, your picture may be a touch sharper if you save the bandwidth.
| Blinx123 wrote: | | But just one thing: How can I avoid burn ins with those black bars? |
Black bars by definition will not cause burn in. Burn in is caused buy exciting the phosphors a lot, not a little. |
Ya, I meant not really "losing detail" but "details getting blurred out by far too less sharpness".
About the black bars: Strange someone at a German board told me about black bars getting burned in if I won't load these special gray bars into the screen cache.
So what's better for the tubes then?
1. Let the black bars be but just get them into the outter cache?
2. Let the black bars be in the outter cache but lay a flicker filter on them
3. Use AAS (Active Area Scanning) to crop the picture the projector way (so that the black bars are erased)?
4. Just use a custom resolution so that black bars are cropped by nature?
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zebu Fellenz
Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 2567
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
The black bars WON'T get burned in. The active image will get burned into the tubes eventually and will cause uneven wear if you want to go back to another aspect ratio later.
If you have the black bars flicker you aren't using a native scope aspect ratio but instead will be using something like 1.78:1
So to answer your questions:
1). I'm not sure what you mean by outer cache, outside the active image area (1.78:1 screen)?
2). Having the black bars flicker will allow the tubes to wear more evenly
3). I'm not sure what AAS is.
4). This is similar to what I'm doing on my G70, I'm running 1920x800p on a 2.40:1 AR screen, this gives me all square pixels and is similar to the forth choice you have.
Erik
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Blinx123
Joined: 24 Dec 2007
Posts: 97
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:38 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Zebu Fellenz wrote: | The black bars WON'T get burned in. The active image will get burned into the tubes eventually and will cause uneven wear if you want to go back to another aspect ratio later.
If you have the black bars flicker you aren't using a native scope aspect ratio but instead will be using something like 1.78:1
So to answer your questions:
1). I'm not sure what you mean by outer cache, outside the active image area (1.78:1 screen)?
2). Having the black bars flicker will allow the tubes to wear more evenly
3). I'm not sure what AAS is.
4). This is similar to what I'm doing on my G70, I'm running 1920x800p on a 2.40:1 AR screen, this gives me all square pixels and is similar to the forth choice you have.
Erik |
1. I meant outside of a scope screen (2.35:1). The outer cache is the border of upper and lower border of the screen (slightly outside of the fabric, laying at the wooden border)
2. Just what I thought. But why should this be 1.78:1 instead of 2.35:1 then? It would still fill the screen as the black bars are outside of the screenarea.
3. I read this somewhere on the German forums. Active Area Scanning let you crop or stretch the image using the projectors capabilities.
4. Ok. But then I'd get uneven wear when driving the other apsect ratios within their native resolutions (720p/1080i/1080p),right?
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kschmit2
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 1141
Location: Heidelberg, Germany
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
I'm sure he meant "Kasch".
Kasch (abbrev. for "Kaschierung") is a term used in German for "matte" or "masking" in the context of filmmaking.
Most Germans (incl. filmmakers unfortunately) don't know the origins of the word, and thus think it is spelt "cache"
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Blinx123
Joined: 24 Dec 2007
Posts: 97
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| kschmit2 wrote: | I'm sure he meant "Kasch".
Kasch (abbrev. for "Kaschierung") is a term used in German for "matte" or "masking" in the context of filmmaking.
Most Germans (incl. filmmakers unfortunately) don't know the origins of the word, and thus think it is spelt "cache" |
Yeah, could be that he meant Kasch. And yeah, he meant the masking (not the flexible one but the very outer masking that every screen has and that is mainly made out of wood,metal or even plastic).
BTW: I also say cache to it. Isn't that dumb to name it that way. You put the outer bars of a picture into it like you move memory into a PC cache.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kschmit2
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 1141
Location: Heidelberg, Germany
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
For active area scanning you would feed your video processor a 1920x1080 signal, and in the case of e.g. a 2.35:1 movie, crop out the black bars, and set the output to 1920x817 (the active area of the 1920x1080 signal of a 2.35:1 movie).
When fed to the PJ you would now have to decrease the vertical amplitude until you have achieved a 2.35:1 aspect ratio.
The advantage of this approach is the much lower bandwidth requirement of 1920x817 as opposed to 1920x1080 (you only need about 75.6 percent of the bandwidth required for 1920x1080)
This has zero effect on tube wear compared to non-AAS. You would excite the exact same areas of the phosphor in either case, since the aspect ratio stays the same.
There are ways to mitigate uneven phosphor wear though:
- try and mix the contents you watch aspect ratio-wise. Approx. 60 percent of the movies out there are 1.85:1 or narrower, and only the remaining 40 percent are wider.
- enable the warmup screen
Kai
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Blinx123
Joined: 24 Dec 2007
Posts: 97
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I thought when using AAS I'd end up outputting the same resolution as I input (full 1080p).
Will there be a big decrease in detail/sharpness when I watch the movies in 800p instead of 1080i (I'll use a 140" or even 160" 2.35:1 Gain: 1.8 screen when I've finaly moved to my new home) ?
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kschmit2
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 1141
Location: Heidelberg, Germany
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
your 8" PJ will not look good at such an insane size. That's 11.7 or 13.3 ft wide.
Rule of thumb:
7" -> look best on <7ft wide screens
8" -> look best on <8ft wide screens
9" -> look best on <9ft wide screens
You can still achieve pleasing results when you go 1ft wider, but anything past that requires a torus screen.
An average 1.8 gain screen will only lead to hotspotting and other unpleasing effects.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Blinx123
Joined: 24 Dec 2007
Posts: 97
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| kschmit2 wrote: | your 8" PJ will not look good at such an insane size. That's 11.7 or 13.3 ft wide.
Rule of thumb:
7" -> look best on <7ft wide screens
8" -> look best on <8ft wide screens
9" -> look best on <9ft wide screens
You can still achieve pleasing results when you go 1ft wider, but anything past that requires a torus screen.
An average 1.8 gain screen will only lead to hotspotting and other unpleasing effects. |
Ok. I'll look at it when the time comes. I'll use a blank,white wall for the next 4-5 months.
I think I'll still go bigger however. It's easy to mask a bigger screen down but impossible to make a small screen bigger.
BTW: What should I use instead of 1.8 gain material then? 1.3 gain? I thought 1.8 would be a perfect match for any CRT projector.
I'll drive the projector in a dark room (not perfectly dark as I won't paint the walls and furniture dark).
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Blinx123 wrote: | I thought when using AAS I'd end up outputting the same resolution as I input (full 1080p).
Will there be a big decrease in detail/sharpness when I watch the movies in 800p instead of 1080i (I'll use a 140" or even 160" 2.35:1 Gain: 1.8 screen when I've finaly moved to my new home) ? |
Read kschmit2's posts. He is correct. Basically AAS is just sending the projector the scan lines that are part of the active image area. On a 1080p encoded disc, they actually encode the black bars. So about 817 scan lines have active image content, the other 263 are black bars. Those black bars take bandwidth.
You are free to do what you want, but a constant height setup with a BG1208 on that size screen is going to look pretty bad. You would be much better going with a digital and anamorphic lens.
_________________
Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
Last edited by Person99 on Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Blinx123
Joined: 24 Dec 2007
Posts: 97
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Person99 wrote: | | Blinx123 wrote: | I thought when using AAS I'd end up outputting the same resolution as I input (full 1080p).
Will there be a big decrease in detail/sharpness when I watch the movies in 800p instead of 1080i (I'll use a 140" or even 160" 2.35:1 Gain: 1.8 screen when I've finaly moved to my new home) ? |
Read kschmit2's posts. He is correct. Basically AAS is just sending the projector the scan lines that are part of the active image area. On a 1080p encoded disc, they actually encode the black bars. So about 817 scan lines have active image content, the other 263 are black bars. Those black bars take bandwidth.
If you your set up and you are free to do what you want, but a constant height setup with a BG1208 on that size screen is going to look pretty bad. You would be much better going with a digital and anamorphic lens. |
Ok. I'll go a little lower. 8' still seems a little small to me. It's not even 3m 
The problem is: I can't afford my dreamsetup (a Panasonic PT-AE2000 with rather a Schneider or a Prismasonic lens) at the moment 
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Blinx123
Joined: 24 Dec 2007
Posts: 97
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Yeah, looks great to me. I can't see any flaws except maybe a slightly shadowing at the corner.
BTW: Thanks for your help at the AVS Forum Athanasios.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Blinx123 wrote: |
The problem is: I can't afford my dreamsetup (a Panasonic PT-AE2000 with rather a Schneider or a Prismasonic lens) at the moment |
Not to be an a$$hole, but I'm surprised an AE2000 would be a "dreamsetup". Dream big! Heck, my dream set up is a pair of blended Cine 9s!!!!
Now you have to choose whether you want a very good looking set up that is less than ideal (i.e. not CIH) or a poor looking set up that fulfills your CIH desire.
Also note that relative size is all that matters. If you want a bigger image from an 8' wide screen, sit closer!
_________________
Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
