CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum

GEBrown · Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 729 Location: Denver

I've been shopping for new speakers for my HT and one of the obvious things you find out when looking at all the speaker forums is the LARGE variance in speaker pricing.

Why is that?

Are you paying for exotic drivers?

Are you paying for exotic wood cases and finishes?

Are you paying for research and development costs?

I know there is a good range of "listening types" here and just wonder what people's thoughts are on this.

Thanks

Gary

papalek · Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 1536 Location: Longs SC

I pick

D___All of the above.

lyd · Joined: 15 Sep 2007 Posts: 390 Location: Lake Mills, Wi

Don't forget the "price as marketing" factor.

The audiocritter who pays $$ a foot for wires and then $$$ more for little popsicle-stick tripods to suspend them on isn't going to look at a speaker unless the purchase price would require most of us to take out a second mortgage.

Not to say there aren't some good reasons for those higher prices as well, but you can definitely take it too far.

I bought a set of RBH TK-5CT towers for mains and some of the bookshelves from the same series for surrounds and center, and I've been extremely happy with them.

lyd

ecrabb · Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:10 pm Post subject:

Exactly. "Price as marketing factor" really comes into play when you get into the higher-end esoteric segment of the market. Some of those companies have very low sales, but make it up with exorbitant profit margins.

SC

Joust · Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:10 pm Post subject:

i say, go with dumpster dives. Very Happy

garyfritz · Joined: 08 Apr 2006 Posts: 12088 Location: Fort Collins, CO

Gary, you're handy with tools. You could probably save yourself thousands of dollars, and end up with some outstanding speakers, if you built your own. That way you're not paying for R&D, or "marketing," or expensive labor.

lyd · Joined: 15 Sep 2007 Posts: 390 Location: Lake Mills, Wi

lyd · Joined: 15 Sep 2007 Posts: 390 Location: Lake Mills, Wi

Oh, and check out The Cult of the Infinite Baffle.

Man, if I had a space that would support it, I'd be all over that.

lyd

GEBrown · Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 729 Location: Denver

**Curt Palme** · Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:57 pm Post subject:

Here's an insight to speaker R&D (completely true story). Years ago I owned a company called Vancouver Audio CLinic. One of the guys that worked with me was a speaker reconer. He could disassemble any speaker, swap out voice coils, spiders, tell you the history of some no name brand 6X 9 speaker out of your 1969 Nova, etc. THis guy KNEW speakers. He had a bunch of the Thiele/Small computer programs that would assist in designing speakers,etc. In his downtime he designed speakers, and worked with a number of cabinetmakers to crank out some interesting cabinets and designs. Some sounded awesome, some sounded like crap. He never marketed them, this was his playtime.

Anyways, so our one time ditzy blonde 6' receptionist goes to him one day and tells him that she needs a pair of speakers for her stereo. He abandons all computer programs and asks her girlie type questions.

-big or small cabinet?
-square or rectangular cabinet
-color of cabinet
-2 or 3 speakers in it
-what color of woofer cone did she want?

THe rest of us techs were laughing our asses off, wondering what kind of abortion he was putting together for her.

HE worked with some spare parts/cabinets we had lying around, and I'll be damned if those stupid speakers didn't sound SWEET! Piles of punch, decent high end. Not bad for $50 for the pair.

I decided then and there that a bunch of the computer programs that he was using for his 'audiophile' speakers were flawed, and that sometimes mixing and matching stuff at random could turn out better stuff than spending hours in front of a computer modelling program.. Smile

garyfritz · Joined: 08 Apr 2006 Posts: 12088 Location: Fort Collins, CO

They had an article in today's Denver paper about Avalon Acoustics, a small local high-end speaker maker. They sell speakers in the $10-25k and up range. The article talked about how much handcrafting and fussy manual effort went into building them. I'm sure that adds to the price.

draganm · Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 8990 Location: Colorado

deronmoped · Joined: 03 Nov 2006 Posts: 1154 Location: San Diego

Speaker systems have been around long enough that they figured out long ago how to get excellent sound from them. Sure there might be little improvements here and there, but for the most part the information has been available to build excellent speakers for quite a while. All you are seeing is different ways of building speakers, not really making noticeable improvements in reproducing the sound, maybe making it different for different tastes.

What I have found to get excellent sound is:

1) Garbage in garbage out, start with a good recording, this is pretty much out of our control with movies, but you can get excellent audio recordings, it may not be what your tastes are, but they are out there.

2) Have plenty of overhead power for the levels you listen to your audio at. If you are pushing your system now, adding extra power can clean things up quite a bit.

3) Have a acoustically treated room, this includes fixing all the rattles. Turn just the bass on and put out a sweep of lower frequency's, I found plenty of things rattling around, I have heard you can as high as 50% distortion from things that vibrate (windows, doors, fixtures, anything that is loose).

4) A excellent set of speakers is low on the list because there are plenty of them out there. You can get them pretty cheap if you go with some tried and true older used models. Or you can go with some new ones that are cheap but have a good reputation and then there is the big dollar stuff that guaranties you will spend lots of money.

My two cents, Deron.

emdawgz1 · Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 7949

IMHO. Beauty is in the eye.. or in this case ear of the beholder.

If you like cheap speakers, enjoy them. If you like tiny bose cubes, you have my sympathy but you are welcome to them.

While there is a lot of hype and snake oil out there, to me there is a difference between low fi, mid fi and hi fi. I've heard it.

So while some will say its' all hype and ad dollars. I will tell you that a well designed and constructed sound setup is miles away from a set of bose cubes, or even a mid dollar receiver and a pair of paradigm's.

just my 2c Embarassed

GEBrown · Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 729 Location: Denver

I certainly don't want to end this interesting conversation, but I do want to thank all for the responses that I've received so far.

I wasn't so much looking for recommenations for me. But I'm lucky to know DraganM and his knowledge of my HT room and my ears. Those Athena towers are a good deal, I think. It's hard to scour all the sites and keep up with what's on sale.

Nope, (B)etter (O)ff with (S)omething (E)lse cubes were never in my plans, EmDawgz! Very Happy

The DIY's also continue to interest me - nothing feels better than to get a compliment and get to say "I made those!".

Anyone else?

garyfritz · Joined: 08 Apr 2006 Posts: 12088 Location: Fort Collins, CO

Dragan, you make it sound like Gary would just build a pretty box, knock some holes in the front, and slap in some drivers. DIY speakers involve a lot more than that. There are pro-quality designs available out there, complete with crossover designs, that allow you to produce a mighty good result. Will it sound like a pair of $20k Avalons? Doubtful. Will it sound better than a $1200 Blose Acoustimass system? I'd hope so!

Whether he could beat the Athenas' performance for only $300, I can't say. I have no idea how good the Athenas are. Damn good price, though, if they're any good.

I really need to upgrade my center channel at least. Maybe I should check out that Athena LSC-100 for only $100...

draganm · Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 8990 Location: Colorado

emdawgz1 · Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 7949

The problem w/ High end audio is that its a chain.

Buy a pair of Wilson Grend Slams, and hook them up to a sony receiver...... wont sound great.

Buy a Levinson transport/processor setup an hook them up to a pair of 300.00 paradigms.... probably wont do it either.

i think depending on the speaker you are paying for

R/D

Higher quality components

better construction.

oliverg · Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:12 am Post subject:

There are some 'alternative' technologies out there that are worthy of a mention - electrostatic hybrids are amazing for films and music listening.

The first time I heard Martin Logan Odysseys, I was totally blown away.

If you can find yourself a friendly dealer that will let you audition several different types at home - that's the way to go.

Also emdawg os spot on about matching components - your whole 'audio chain' should be at least reasonable to get a good result as the lowest common denominator component will lower the effective peformance of your whole system

NateTTU · Joined: 14 Feb 2007 Posts: 297

Everything is certainly objective but I certainly would recommend DIY. Of course if you have enough cash you could always just buy really expensive equipment and know you have the best money can buy. However, for the majority of use we have to settle for what we can get and if your like me, I enjoy building things on my own even if they aren't the absolute best. I'm pretty confident most of the guys with designs at htguide are very knowledgable and I know a couple of them have been hired out by manufactures to build high end designs. Here is a review of a guy who seems to have heard pretty expensive equipment about the design I'm constructing:
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php4?p=340277&postcount=120 Art has Mark Seaton custom equipment and he floats around in the DIY world a little so obviously some people know what they are doing. I know manufactures have better stuff but in the end when you get to higher audio equipment the differences become smaller and smaller. Once my speakers are completed I would be glad to have anyone come over for a listening session if they are interested.