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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 11:43 am Post subject: Image quality Fios vs Directv |
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I now have both until I decide on a winner. The two HD boxes that I'm comparing are the Motorola QIP6416-2 supplied by Verizo/Fios and the Sony SATHD-200 connected to Directv. My first impression is that the Sony provides a sharper image.
This is a suprise to me as every report I've read gives Fios the thumbs up in image quality. I found it a tad soft. Admittingly, I have not tweaked the signal and it's not a optimal connection. To A/B them, the connection is as follows. From the Motorola I have the short supplied HDMI/DVI cable connected to the HD Fury. The fury is plugged directly onto a VGA input on my NEC ISS switcher driving 50 feet of RGBHV. The Sony outputs HD through a VGA (HD-15 connector) directly to the ISS with the same 50 feet of RGBHV. Tonight I'll try it without the switcher and 50 foot run to see if it sharpens up any. The Motorola is the same HD-DVR STB that Comcast uses. Does anyone else notice a softness to it's output? Perhaps I need to keep the signal digital all the way to the projector?
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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Chip, this is the opposite of my experience. When we switched from DirecTV to FiOS over 1 year ago, my wife immediately noticed two things:
1) The FiOS DVR sucks (and she is still bitching about it today)
2) The picture quality is noticeably (on some SD cable stations dramatically) better than DirecTV's crap signal.
I have the QIP6416 and the HDMI output is only slightly better than the component output. Component through Kim's looks almost as good as HDMI.
You might try both without the ISS, I know more than one engineer I respect has looked at the ISS schematics and design and was not impressed with it.
As an FYI, I don't keep the signal digital all the way to the PJ. Mine is:
HDFury -> Kimcoder -> extron 202Rxi -> 25' Belden 1694A with Canare connectors
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Dave
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:46 am Post subject: |
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Dave, I don't see a option for full screen. I use a 4:3 screen as much of my sat/cable viewing is SD. When the box is set to 1080I 16:9, it puts sd within the 16:9 raster. When I switch the pj to a 4:3 aspect ratio, the height is OK but I get gray bars on the left and right. I haven't tried it yet but I'm not sure the projector has the range to do it and blank the $hit out of the unused part. Any suggestions?
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Chip
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:59 am Post subject: |
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Oh ya, my initial A/B test was for $hit. I set the fios box to 1080I on a local monitor and immediatly went out to the theater to see the results. I was unaware that a resolution confirmation command was required. By the time I gout out to the theater, it had defaulted to 720P. The softness issue is resolved but the image looks slightly washed out. I will have to record HD Net's test patterns and do a complete color calibration and try again. I think that will solve it as I'm relying on the calibration for the Sony box for comparison.
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Chip
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10270
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:05 am Post subject: |
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Should the comparison be between current equipment? I am not aware that Sony makes any of the MPEG-4 equipment. This is exactly what is being installed (HR20/21) this coming Friday. Of course, Fios is not an option where I live (or I'd get the uber-broadband). As such, DirecTV only has to be better than my local Comcast provider.
U-verse? Nothing like that will be seen before 2010 in my neighborhood. BTW, AT&T likes to market U-verse but a whopping 200 U-verse customers exist in the Southeastern part of the USA. Compare that to the five million DSL-active households and the ratio of deployment is well below the radar. In fact, AT&T cannot compete in anything in my 'hood.
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:48 am Post subject: |
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Both Verizon (Fios) and Comcast use the same HD DVR cable box, (at least in this area). so I guess the difference is in the transmission of the content. I'll have to tweak out this signal and decide.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| stefuel wrote: | | Dave, I don't see a option for full screen. I use a 4:3 screen as much of my sat/cable viewing is SD. When the box is set to 1080I 16:9, it puts sd within the 16:9 raster. When I switch the pj to a 4:3 aspect ratio, the height is OK but I get gray bars on the left and right. I haven't tried it yet but I'm not sure the projector has the range to do it and blank the $hit out of the unused part. Any suggestions? |
Yeah, that box sucks. You have no option to output a stations native signal, and its handling of 4:3 sucks. I don't watch any SD on my PJ accept the very rare SD DVD so I don't have this option. However, I did set up a 4:3 black. With maximized rasters, my PJ has enough blacking to actually blank out the gray bars. The other option (IIRC--have not done this for a year) is to let the box stretch the 4:3. You can than use the PJ's geometry controls to shrink it back.
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Dave
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| stefuel wrote: | | Both Verizon (Fios) and Comcast use the same HD DVR cable box, (at least in this area). so I guess the difference is in the transmission of the content. I'll have to tweak out this signal and decide. |
Verizon does not employ data reshaping tactics like comcast. That is why the signal is better.
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Dave
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HaydnG90
Joined: 22 May 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with Dave. Verizon's Motorola DVR box is a PITA. I really miss my Sony TIVO. I'm just waiting for Directv to get their act together and start broadcasting more uncompressed HD content so I can switch back to them.
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:20 am Post subject: |
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OK, something's F'd up here. With my Sony/Directv, when the box is set to 1080I, that's what comes out no matter what channel you are tuned to. The Fios box is set to 1080I and HD looks fine, but when I switch to a non-HD channel the resolution drops to either 480I or P. I'm not sure but the scan lines are as thick as pencils. When I go into the menu, it still says 1080I. The installer didn't leave a manual here for it. Any suggestions?
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
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Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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I may also have a problem with the box. I downloaded the user manual. Page 11 or so lists a menu that's available when the stb is in the off state. This is the menu with the 4:3 override control. It won't let me into that menu. The box is unresponsive to both a menu push from the remote or front panel.
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dbaisey
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 821
Location: Southern Cal LA / Seattle WA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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Chip,
The last Motorola I used you shut off then hold two of the buttons down on the front of the unit to get that menu. If I remember right it froze also and needed to be rebooted. Cant remember now but I had the guy on the phone, it didn't have a manual sent with it either. Took a few tries. Doug
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| dbaisey wrote: | Chip,
The last Motorola I used you shut off then hold two of the buttons down on the front of the unit to get that menu. If I remember right it froze also and needed to be rebooted. Cant remember now but I had the guy on the phone, it didn't have a manual sent with it either. Took a few tries. Doug |
With it running, you press power-select-menu and the screen will come up. You only have about two seconds to complete the operation or it won't work. This is not what it says in the manual from fios on line. After a few firmware upgrades that is what you get. Unlike my Sony SAT HD-200, this box does not upscale SD to 1080I. It places a 480I or P image within a 1080I or 720P environment. This looks horrable on a giant screen. My work-around is to run a s-video cable to my scaler from the Motorola. The scaler is set to 1440X960P for my collection of SD DVD's. This looks great for full screen SD content. The down side is it's costing me a full day of re-programming on my Crestron system. The system should be up and running by tonight. Oh well, I need the practice 
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dbaisey
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
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Location: Southern Cal LA / Seattle WA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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Well that sucks. So your saying there is no way to shut off native? Or you can but SD will be 4:3 in what ever output mode? Im a bit confused. Doug
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
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Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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| dbaisey wrote: | | Well that sucks. So your saying there is no way to shut off native? Or you can but SD will be 4:3 in what ever output mode? Im a bit confused. Doug |
Per the Fios tech I spoke to "what you are seeing is a low resolution (480I/P) 4:3 picture within a high resolution (1080I) 16:9 signal." So from that I guess what I'm seeing is a combiniation of the 480 background lines of res and the 1080I primary res lines. Any way you slice it, the SD image sucks when you try to view it through the HDMI connection on a giant screen. As I said the quick fix is to take the SD signal via s-video and scale it. This looks at least as good as the Sony's upconversion did, if not better.
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Chip
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
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Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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SD signals can only be send out from the box as 480p. It will not scale them to 1080i. Now you know why I said I dont' watch SD other than DVDs on the PJ. Yep, it looks like sh!t.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
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Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | SD signals can only be send out from the box as 480p. It will not scale them to 1080i. Now you know why I said I dont' watch SD other than DVDs on the PJ. Yep, it looks like sh!t. |
I know you'll think I'm crazy but after numerous A/B's, I still think DTV is a sharper image. Not by much but noticable. I am however going to keep the fios cause the deal is to good to pass up. If DTV gave me the equipment, I would have stayed. Something about paying for the equipment, then also paying a lease fee for it rubbed me the wrong way. On top of that, I get a $200.00 gift certificate to BB. That takes the pinch out of buying a new BD player 
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Chip
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
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Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| stefuel wrote: |
I know you'll think I'm crazy but after numerous A/B's, I still think DTV is a sharper image. Not by much but noticable. |
OK, I know you are going to think of this as picking on the Ampro, but I'm not--that much.
DirecTV downrezzes signals from 1920x1080i to 1280x1080i. FiOS does not. So, if your PJ cannot resolve the 1920, it is going to look a little less sharp. As a test, you could hook up a good scaler like a lumagen and downrez the FiOS signal to 1280x1080i and see if it looks sharper than the DirecTV.
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Dave
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WTS
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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Does DIsh do the same downrezzing?
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ecrabb
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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One other thing to consider that everybody always glosses over when they tear into DirecTV for reduced spatial resolution: Resolution isn't the whole story! Resolution, data rate, picture content and processing all play together to create the end result. It's entirely possible that a 1920x1080i stream at 12Mbps could look SOFTER than a 1280x1080i stream at 12Mbps. It depends on how it was processed. Read on...
One 'advantage' to DirecTV's down-sampled 1280x1080i "HD Lite" is that it uses about 2/3 the transmission bandwidth that a full 1920x1080i signal does. That also means that at comparable date rates, the "HD Lite" signal is about 33% less compressed. This isn't trivial.
If you've watched much DirecTV vs. OTA 1080i MPEG-2, you may have noticed that there is typically a lot more motion-induced macroblocking in the OTA stream compared to most DirecTV material. That's because while the OTA stream may be running at 15 Mbps, the DirecTV at 12Mpbs is actually less compressed than the OTA stream is. The OTA encoder saturates much more quickly with high motion than does the 'HD Lite' stream.
Now, in general, I'm sure the data rate is a little higher on Fios than it is on DirecTV, but is it always 50% higher? I don't know. I do know that a 50% higher data rate is what it would take to compress the data stream no more than the equivalent "HD Lite" stream.
Now... Processing. One way to decrease compressed data rate and increase codec efficiency is by pre-filtering. If you reduce high-frequency (high resolution) content some by softening, blurring, averaging, etc. you'll get the same apparent visual quality in a much smaller data stream with fewer visual compression artifacts. It could be that some of the Fios material - while it is 'full' spacial resolution - it may be pre-filtered to increase compression efficiency and reduce transmission bandwidth, and end up not looking that much better than the comparable DirecTV signal. From what I've heard, that's not generally the case, but I just wanted to throw out there that digital compression and transmission isn't as simple as comparing spatial resolution and data rate only.
SC
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