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MYoung
Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 369
Location: Madison, WI
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:41 am Post subject: |
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| paw wrote: | | Person99 wrote: |
Some think I'm a fan of HD DVD instead of BD. Not true. I'm a fan of HD movies on disc. Therefore, I want them delivered in the highest quality most user friendly format available. Given that they both can store the exact same movie with the exact same encoding, the decision had to be made on grounds other than movie quality. I felt HD DVD should win because:
1) No region codes
2) Less DRM
3) Lower costs to manufacture players
4) Lower costs to manufacture discs with more lines that can be easily converted from DVD.
5) HDi is better than the still to be finalized BD-J.
In addition to this, supporting BD means endorsing Sony's position to force consumers into paying more for less by holding content hostage. The only recourse we have as consumers is spending our $$$ in ways that benefit us, not hurt us. Willingly supporting companies that engage in these sorts of practices can only serve to hurt us as consumers.
We all know that if all movies were released on both formats, BD would be dead already. The "hold content hostage" approach is the only reason they got this far. And I'm simply flabbergasted that anyone would play into this. Would you guys really just accept it and say "oh well" and go down to buy a Ford if you had to by a Ford to drive on many roads? I'd like to hope that consumers would not screw themselves in this way. But with BD, we (collectively) have decided to screw ourselves. Unbelievable. |
6) Upgradable firmware. |
7) Ability to author 40 to 80 minutes of HD content to a regular recordable DVD using an average PC with the expectation that it will play in all HD DVD players.
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Tom.W
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 6635
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10270
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:44 am Post subject: |
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I do not doubt that some retailers are being paid closet money to focus on one format over another. Also, I found it very amusing that I bought an HD DVD player and Blu-ray movies from Amazon (bought both Blu-ray players in retail), but the last order got delivered with an HD DVD player brochure in the package.
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kal
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | Quote: |
I've said it before and I'll say it again: I like movies more than I hate Sony and am willing to accept that I may pay higher prices for movies in the future because of this an that Sony may get rich off of it. |
For me, it is not just the higher prices and any Sony hating. It is the terrible precedent. This tactic will continue to screw us for years to come. |
Yeah, I know. It's not just the HD-DVD vs. Blu-ray issue... it's everything. Everything's going into the toilet. People aren't doing their research before buying, etc.
| Quote: | Movies on HD are fantastic compared to SD - I didn't want to wait. I had waited long enough.
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| Person99 wrote: | | Let me live in my dream world!!! If we would have all banded together as consumers and killed BD, we would have the movies you want, and even more of them. Ah, a boy can dream! |
An honourable goal... a bit too optimistic I think but honourable. 
So let's turn this conversation around a bit and ask the question: Why did HD-DVD fail?
I was thinking about this on the on the way home yesterday and I think there are some factors that nobody (least likely Toshiba) thought would be issues working against them. These are all IMHO - some of them are pretty out there:
(1) Price. Believe it or not, I think the cheaper price of HD-DVD players worked against them. HD-DVD was seen by the average consumer as 'cheaper' or 'not as good'. Couple that with the fact that most people thought they already had HD out of their DVD players (because they were labelled with the words '1080p' and 'HD'), I bet most people saw disc players go like this: DVD = good, HD-DVD = better, Blu-ray = best.
Toshiba constantly lowering the price I think had the opposite effect that they wanted, it just made the players look cheaper still to the average person. The extremely low prices almost completely removed any chance of another manufacturer making them. How can say, Panasonic, make an HD-DVD player and make any profit on it if Toshiba's already selling them for less than cost? The only HD-DVD players that were announced were (IIRC) 'Ventura' brand models that are simply rebadged Toshiba players. Last week Toshiba cut all their player prices in half! How can anyone compete? To the average person, it looks like there's basically no hardware support for HD-DVD out there. While Blu-ray has all kinds of manufacturers. Not a good thing.
(3) Case Colour. This one sounds silly, but remember that people are buying cell phones, MP3 players, and all sort of other gadgets based on look alone. Ipods come in fashion designer colours! The marketing guys will tell you that blue is "cool" "new" and "sleek" while red just looks "angry".
(4) No HD-DVD player in all Xbox360's. Sony took a huge hit delaying their PS3 while waiting for Blu-ray as they wanted Blu-ray to be in every PS3. In the end I think it'll pay off for them. Microsoft released the HD-DVD player as an add-on to the Xbox360 (HD-DVD wasn't ready at the time) but they could have discontinued that version and started making a newer version with built in HD-DVD player... wasn't done!
(5) The name "Blu-ray" sounds cooler than "HD-DVD". "HD-DVD" is a confusing combination of 2 acronyms to the average person. "Blu-ray" just sounds cooler to the average person and is easier to pronounce and remember.
So all these reasons are 100% marketing.
Kal
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MikeEby
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 5237
Location: Osceola, Indiana
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: |
(5) The name "Blu-ray" sounds cooler than "HD-DVD". "HD-DVD" is a confusing combination of 2 acronyms to the average person. "Blu-ray" just sounds cooler to the average person and is easier to pronounce and remember.
Kal |
I think you hit there! I was at Sams Club a couple of weeks ago a little girl maybe 5 or 6 years old walk up the the Blu-ray rack and said.."Oh cool Blu-ray". I was dumbfounded that she new what they were... Most likely she didn't, but the name just sounded cool so she was impressed.
Mike
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: |
(4) No HD-DVD player in all Xbox360's. Sony took a huge hit delaying their PS3 while waiting for Blu-ray as they wanted Blu-ray to be in every PS3. In the end I think it'll pay off for them. Microsoft released the HD-DVD player as an add-on to the Xbox360 (HD-DVD wasn't ready at the time) but they could have discontinued that version and started making a newer version with built in HD-DVD player... wasn't done! |
Not sure about this. I read recently that based upon poll results, the average PS3 owner does not know that their machine plays HD!!!!!!!
It is marketing, but I break it down like this:
90% of people think their SD DVD player IS HD. So, they didn't decide this.
1-2% of the people that were really educated wanted HD DVD to win.
The 8-9% of the people "sort of in the know" (don't know the details of the platforms but know their SD DVD player is not HD) got swayed by three main BluRay marketing tactics:
1) It holds more data--therefore it is better!
2) More movies will be on BD.
3) The PS3! BD's victory is a given!
So yes, the "barely informed" are the ones who decided this. The marketing worked on them.
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A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
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Location: Ottawa, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | Not sure about this. I read recently that based upon poll results, the average PS3 owner does not know that their machine plays HD!!!!!!! |
That's interesting. I didn't know this.
Actually, you know what? I think I did know this... I remember reading some time ago that Sony was going to really start pushing the Blu-ray capabilities of the PS3 (likely for the reasons you stated):
| Quote: | Sony Touts Blu-ray Capabilities in New PlayStation 3 Marketing Push
Tue May 08, 2007 at 03:15 AM ET
Hoping to prime the PlayStation 3 sales pump for a blockbuster fourth quarter, Sony is launching an aggressive marketing campaign touting the console's Blu-ray capabilities.
Faced with PS3 sales lagging behind the Xbox 360 and the more family-friendly Nintendo Wii, Sony is focusing its next round of marketing might on hyping their next-gen console as the most comprehensive Blu-ray Disc player on the market.
In an upcoming marketing blitzkrieg, Sony will promote the console's cutting-edge high-def capabilities, including its extensive studio support, superior picture and sound, and web-enabled connectivity (despite the fact that no studio has yet released a Blu-ray title with online content).
"Our goal is to definitely widen our target base and not be so niche," Kim Nguyen, Sony PlayStation 3 Manager, told Video Business of the ad campaign, which is set to encompass multiple media including TV, print, radio and Internet.
"This is high-def entertainment messaging, where we have our exclusive software titles, and we are delivering a very powerful machine. On the movie side, you have beautiful movies that you can watch on the PS3. We are going for that larger audience," she added.
Sony has not yet announced an exact start date for its PS3 Blu-ray blitz, nor total marketing costs. However, the campaign is expected to begin sometime this summer, leading up to the fourth quarter. |
Kal
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ecrabb
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Joined: 13 Mar 2006
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Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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I agree, Kal. This whole thing was all about the marketing. Sony simply did a better job managing the brand image.
I noticed on the front cover of a couple of the Pixar BD's, there are labels that say something along the lines of "For Blu-Ray Disc players and Playstation 3"... so, Sony is definitely trying to make sure people know the PS3 will play BD's.
SC
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10270
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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I think saying, "HD DVD" is a lot more awkward than saying, "hi-def DVD." Maybe Toshiba should have made sure that was how it should have been pronounced. Still, matters little if the retailers deliberately try to not sell inexpensive players and then bad mouth HD DVD completely.
I hate BB and have officially stopped shopping there, but I am about the biggest anomaly to them as seen by the millions of consumers that shop there and consider them the authority on everything. As such, whatever comes out of BB mouth rules to those ignorant SOBs. I've had BB employees bad mouth HD DVD. BB artificially keeps their movies priced high. And BB conveniently keeps out of stock the least expensive Toshiba player while always have a cheap BD in stock.
Of course, I can only relate as things are experienced by me in my little world. Now with the HD DVD conglomerate having only two exclusive studio (are there not more supporting both formats?) they should be focused on as many titles as they can and just out pace Blu-ray in the movie title releases every week.
For instance, if one looks at the Top 100 movies of all time in terms of adjusted gross their ticket sales and then filter for those studios still supporting HD DVD, what movies are there not yet out on HD DVD? Find them and you find part of the problem.
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ThomasW
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 16
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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Hello all, I'm new to this forum .
I think that part of the "sucess" of blu-ray has much to do with the fact that only Toshiba as sole electronic brand supports HDDVD, while blu-ray is backed by almost everyone else, including "heavy" names like Pioneer and Denon. Even if the video processor in all players, from "cheap" Samsungs to Pioneers, are the same (Sigma or Broadcom).
I agree with Kal, I just wanna se movies in HD. I don't really care for the bull**** options like Pip and the like.
I have players for both formats, but found the supply of available movies exclusive on HDDVD to be more interesting to me than the supply of blu-rays. Here in Europe there are many smaller distributors who have HDDVD movies avaliable that are blu-ray exclusive or not available on HDDVD in the US. Some of those are only available in foreign language and sometimes with no english subtexts, f e Hero (german subs) and the Sergio Leone flick For a Few Dollars More (italian dialogue and HoH subs).
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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| ThomasW wrote: |
I think that part of the "sucess" of blu-ray has much to do with the fact that only Toshiba as sole electronic brand supports HDDVD, while blu-ray is backed by almost everyone else, including "heavy" names like Pioneer and Denon. |
Not so sure this has been a factor. If you look at stand alone players, Toshiba has sold 64% more HD DVD players than all stand-alone blu ray players combined!
Onkyo was going to make an HD DVD player by the way. But, your profit margain is double making a BD player, so why not do that?!?!? Of course BD got more interest. But Denon and Panny would have made HD DVD players if BD died.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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MYoung
Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 369
Location: Madison, WI
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| ThomasW wrote: |
I think that part of the "sucess" of blu-ray has much to do with the fact that only Toshiba as sole electronic brand supports HDDVD, while blu-ray is backed by almost everyone else, including "heavy" names like Pioneer and Denon. Even if the video processor in all players, from "cheap" Samsungs to Pioneers, are the same (Sigma or Broadcom).
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There was also NEC, Sanyo, Microsoft, RCA, Kenwood, and Intel. RCA made a HD DVD player. Yes, it's true that when you think HD DVD player you think Toshiba HD DVD player. However, I'm not sure that hurt HD DVD. Toshiba HD DVD players are pretty solid hardware. The only exception were some glitchy HD-A1 players, though firmware upgrades and warranty support from Toshiba has remedied that for the most part.
You do bring up an interesting point about HD DVD being more accessible to smaller distributors and independents. I saw a news article talking about Microsoft and Sundance Institute awarding a HDi Grant to an independent film.
http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/prnewswire/AQSU00120012008-1.htm
There's also a program called "1000 HD DVD Indies Project" which sounds interesting.
http://www.createspace.com/Special/L/1000HD_indies.jsp
The same old crap from Hollywood gets old and if studios aren't interested in transferring older titles to HD DVD because they won't make as much money then bring on the independents! Yes, that's niche, but niche also describes HD DVD and Blu-ray vs. DVD.
I don't think the name HD DVD really has much to do with Blu-ray beating it right now. What about the name HDTV? Was that too confusing for people? In the beginning, perhaps. However, if that's the case then should HDTVs have been called something else, like "Eye-candy Box"? What about the name linkage between HDTV and HD DVD? Where were the ads saying "So you got a HDTV, now what? Get a HD DVD player!"? Where were the comparisons in quality between HD DVD and DVD advertised on HDTV broadcasts? I remember seeing movie previews here and there saying something was available on HD DVD, but where was the education of the public? Where were the incentives for HDTV buyers to get a HD DVD player to help push the format? We see some incentives now, but it seems a little late. Where was the attempt to push HD DVD as a format suitable for authoring HD home videos? The format was set-up well for that with 3x DVD being part of the HD DVD spec, but no 1st party authoring software and the 3rd party authoring software is pretty pathetic. Where are the cheap HD DVD-ROM drives and HD DVD writer drives for PCs?
I think it was poor marketing and a lack of educating the public. Companies can sell people bottled water but they cannot sell people movies with 6 times the resolution as DVD? The same can be said of Blu-ray, though it clearly helped that PS3s were being sold and put in the hands of a more technically savvy segment of the population -- teenagers and guys in their 20s and 30s. The masses who aren't educated on the formats would probably just as easily think a DVD player could play a Blu-ray as they would think a DVD player could play a HD DVD. After all, they're all circular CD doohickies, right? Let's also not forget that some HD DVDs could be played in DVD players! Sure, it said combo disc in the ads, but it didn't really explain it. I also think negative PR, such as Warner jumping ship, is sinking the HD DVD ship. Now when Joe Schmoe walks into a Best Buy and asks about HD DVD I can see the sales people saying, oh, yeah, HD DVD is in trouble. You should go Blu-ray. Maybe I'll walk in a Best Buy and test that theory. It's also interesting how the Blu-ray section in Best Buy is twice as large as the HD DVD section when the title selection is still pretty even -- what, something like 400 to 450 in favor of Blu-ray?
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ecrabb
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Joined: 13 Mar 2006
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Location: Utah
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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| MYoung wrote: | | It's also interesting how the Blu-ray section in Best Buy is twice as large as the HD DVD section when the title selection is still pretty even -- what, something like 400 to 450 in favor of Blu-ray? |
I noticed that, too. It was all in how they were arranged on the shelf. All the HD-DVD's were shelved like we would at home, with the spines out. The BD's on the other hand would have 5-10 spines, then they'd stick some in with the covers facing out, then go back to the spines again. A casual uninformed observer surely would have gone away with the impression that there were almost twice as many movies available on Blu-Ray Disk.
That kind of shady stuff really pisses me off. Somehow, BestBuy had to be compensated in some way for talking up twice the shelf space for roughly the same number of SKUs, didn't they? It's bull****, whatever the reason for it.
SC
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ronholm
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Posts: 12111
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | MYoung wrote: | | It's also interesting how the Blu-ray section in Best Buy is twice as large as the HD DVD section when the title selection is still pretty even -- what, something like 400 to 450 in favor of Blu-ray? |
I noticed that, too. It was all in how they were arranged on the shelf. All the HD-DVD's were shelved like we would at home, with the spines out. The BD's on the other hand would have 5-10 spines, then they'd stick some in with the covers facing out, then go back to the spines again. A casual uninformed observer surely would have gone away with the impression that there were almost twice as many movies available on Blu-Ray Disk.
That kind of shady stuff really pisses me off. Somehow, BestBuy had to be compensated in some way for talking up twice the shelf space for roughly the same number of SKUs, didn't they? It's bull****, whatever the reason for it.
SC |
 One of my helpers right now is studying for his BA in Fashion Merchandising.. (We would give him flak about it but he is a 250 lb Samoan, )
That is a perfect example of what he intends to do for a living.. People would be amazed at how much thought went into the sale of that T-shirt they thought they just bought on an impulse...
Marketing folks have that crapp down to a science...
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ThomasW
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 16
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:38 am Post subject: |
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MYoung,
Yes, now that you mention it I think I read somewhere that Sanyo, NEC, Kenwood and others are supporting HDDVD. But action speaks louder than words. Why did not Kenwood for example put out a line of HDDVD player models ? Or NEC, as "home cinema package" together with their plasma displays ?
The biggest danger as I see it with blu-ray winning the war is that smaller, independent companies will not join in and produce blu-ray movies due to the high costs of producing these. Many movies available at least on DVD today will definitely never make it to blu-ray.
As for myself, I am among others very interested in the type of movies distributed by Criterion Collection. I was about to start importing some just as the format war started and high-definition was suddenly the talk of the day. Criterion has said that they definitely can not come up with the money to produce in both high-def formats, like Warner Bro did, but would wait until a "winner" would emerge. With blu-ray coming out of the ring still standing up, and the cost of producing on blu-ray very much higher than that of HDDVD, I wonder how Criterion C will decide. Maybe they'll just continue with DVD's, even if most of their masters are alreday made in high-def. And probably very well made too.
I am afraid all high-def movies eventually will be of the character like "Saw IV", "30 days of night", "Click" and "300"..... 
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10270
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:01 am Post subject: |
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I wonder if Toshiba will some something to the cell processor as payback for losing.
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Welwynnick
Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 229
Location: Welwyn, Herts, UK
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:12 pm Post subject: Re: HD DVD going to war! Yeah, baby! Yeah! |
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| greg_mitch wrote: | | Welwynnick wrote: | That's misleading.
They are specifically referring to stand-alone players, yet most Blu-ray users buy the PS3, which they don't count in those figures. |
I agree it is misleading but again you can't exactly quantify how many PS3's are solely used as BR players. |
No I can’t, though many have tried. This is widely discussed. I happen to think it’s irrelevant, I don’t care how many PS3’s there are, or what the attach rate. It’s the number of discs sold that is important. If Toshiba chose to ignore this for their marketing purposes (which is fair enough; it’s what I would do) then the assessment on hardware penetration should include appropriate representation of all players. If that means assuming that only 20% of PS3s are used to play BDs, then fair enough, factor that into the HW comparison. But I didn’t make the choice to make the comparison on HW rather than SW, Toshiba did.
| Quote: | | Welwynnick wrote: | | And if HD-DVD was the proven format of choice for consumers, Warner New Line and HBO would not have moved to blu-ray. |
You can't be serious can you? New Line and HBO only went to BR because they have to follow Warner. Warner has already issued three different reasons they switched to BR and none of them were very believable. Do you remember the gas prices excuse? |
Yes, quite serious. They didn’t willingly try to make the wrong decision for the wrong reason. They have buildings full of analysts and advisors who are trying to make the right decision for their business, knowing that their decision will affect everyone else, whose consequent actions will in turn affect Warner. Hopefully in a positive manner. I strongly believe that it was Paramount who made the wrong decision, because all their reasons for adopting HDDVD were the same reasons that applied before Blu-ray launched. There were no new reasons beyond you-know-what. | Quote: | | Welwynnick wrote: | | Under current circumstances, it's quite natural that market forces should drive the price of HDDVD players and discs downwards. Sales would nose-dive otherwise, as supply exceeds demand. Great marketeers that they undoubtedly are, Toshiba are making this sound positive for the format. |
Explain why lower prices for increased volume is bad again. (Wal-Mart?) |
Simple. Lower prices reflect low demand. People don’t want them. When the latest and greatest new product comes to market, it’s price will usually be at it’s highest, and this will gradually erode during it’s lifespan. When you can buy a great performing HD player for $100 or $150 with 5 or 7 free discs, the player is almost being given away. That’s what normally happens at the end of a product’s life cycle, not at the beginning. One of the most impressive things about Blu-ray players is that although they have come down from first-adopter’s pricing, they have still managed to maintain their price, because they have maintained their value. And still sold in moderate, but comparable, volumes to HD-DVD. | Quote: | | Welwynnick wrote: | Although this doesn't square with my take on things, there are still good reasons for buying an HD player if the discs are cheap enough to subsidise the player, or if the player comes with enough free discs. The effective cost of the player is then pretty inconsequential.
Only thing is, low player price was HD-DVD's strategy last year, and it was shown not to work. Just as everyone didn't chose to buy a cheap DVHS player when HD-DVDs came out.... |
Again, I don't quite get this. When the HD-A2 went on sale for $99 how many did they sell? That proved that price didn't matter how? |
Sure the first players were too expensive for the mass market, but now you can have TOO cheap. When people see HD players being sold on price, they are naturally suspicious. It undermines the confidence and pride that the manufacturer ought to have in his product, and this is not wasted on business or the public.
If people don’t understand why, on an unarguable price-vs-performance basis, HD-DVD hasn’t beaten Blu-ray, then they need to understand the other factors that influence marketing. I’m really chuffed that Kal is carrying the torch on this.
Nick
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papalek
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1536
Location: Longs SC
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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| WanMan wrote: | | I wonder if Toshiba will some something to the cell processor as payback for losing. |
? 
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greg_mitch
Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 5320
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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Nick, being from the UK you probably don't understand the whole Walmart analogy.
Cheaper prices does not mean less quality to the majority of Americans. If you have ever been to a Walmart on Friday night and seen how busy they are of people buying all sorts of junk you would understand.
Maybe to some elite hobby snobs less price = less quality (not specifically calling you a snob unless you want the title ). But most are value oriented, like myself.
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Welwynnick
Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 229
Location: Welwyn, Herts, UK
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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One of our biggest supermarket chains, Asda, is now owned by Walmart, so maybe that approach will move over here. We do have a typical view over here, though, that "you get what you pay for".
I think DVD only really took off in the UK when the supermarkets started selling cheap no-brand players. One of my points, though, is that only happened once the market matured, which it hasn't done yet with HDM.
I'd say that I'm value-oriented. I'd sure like a Pioneer BD player, but I thought they were too expensive. I'm not hung up on the players themselves though. Players come and go, but disc collections tend to stick around, and be expensive.
Nick
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