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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:49 pm Post subject: So, what's the deal? |
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Here we are in 2008. Digitals are cheaper and better all the time. Hell, every 6 months for the last 6 years there has been a "CRT Killer" released. Now we have 1080p (pretty much the only spec Joe Sixpack cares about) NEW digital PJs under $2500!!! CRT PJs are big, heavy, a PITA to set up. I was told CRT PJ's death was just around the corner 4 years ago and the bottom was going to fall out of the CRT market. So, where in the hell is my minty $2500 Cine 9?!?!?!?
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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VDC just jacked up the price of new 9" tubes to $1650, so don't expect the price of high end sets to come down any time soon.
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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I think the projectors (mostly the tubes) are dying off as fast as the digitals are replacing them. There are still enough of us die-hards around to keep snapping up the cast-offs and keep propping up the prices.
(BTW nice to have you back, Dave! Yer a PITA but yer my kinda PITA.  )
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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The doom and gloom may not be what some have predicted, but the wind is definitely coming out of the CRT sails (sales!)... In fact, ask Curt what he has to say on the matter. A G70 on AVS for $1000. Almost mint G90 for $7500 with no takers. There are plenty more examples.
$5000 1080p digitals have definitely put a dent in the high end of the market (sales numbers - not so much prices), and the $2000-2500 bulb boxes have definitely put a dent in the 8"-er sales. You haven't been watching prices if you don't think people are moving that direction.
I think the main reason that CRT prices haven't fallen precipitously is the same reason home prices haven't fallen: The people who have them simply won't let them go for what the market will bear. They're just hanging onto them. You might only pay $5000 for a 909, but if you had one, would you sell it for that price?
Time will tell, but I'm pretty sure the prices are only going one direction.
SC
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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I really wonder if the world one day will come to it's senses and go back to paying real money for stuff that lasts. That's been my soapbox for years..
NO question that dropping prices, increased shipping/courier costs and the dropping USD has hurt profit in 2007 as compared to other years. I've offset that by paying less for surplus sets and being VERY picky in what I buy. I turn down way more offers than what I actually buy these days. Also, being better at board repairs than say 4 years ago helps as well. Being the only guy almost literally worldwide that does board level repairs doesn't hurt either..
Also, getting emails like this one this morning help a lot:
My Barco has only 2800 h on the chassis and I`m not crazy enough
for buying me a Beamer like DLP or other silly stuff....
Once a CRT every time a CRT, best picture at all.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | The doom and gloom may not be what some have predicted, but the wind is definitely coming out of the CRT sails (sales!)... In fact, ask Curt what he has to say on the matter. A G70 on AVS for $1000. Almost mint G90 for $7500 with no takers. There are plenty more examples.
$5000 1080p digitals have definitely put a dent in the high end of the market (sales numbers - not so much prices), and the $2000-2500 bulb boxes have definitely put a dent in the 8"-er sales. You haven't been watching prices if you don't think people are moving that direction.
I think the main reason that CRT prices haven't fallen precipitously is the same reason home prices haven't fallen: The people who have them simply won't let them go for what the market will bear. They're just hanging onto them. You might only pay $5000 for a 909, but if you had one, would you sell it for that price?
Time will tell, but I'm pretty sure the prices are only going one direction.
SC |
I agree that prices have been going down. But not as fast as everyone expected 3-4 years ago. Hell, 2 years ago, Curt said he'd have no CRT sales by now, only parts and service.
Look at it this way, several years ago when a Qualia was $25,000 (and some Runco and JVC-based PJs were more), a good G90 was $12,000. That put the good G90 at half the price of a "great" digital. Now, a "great" digital is $5000. But what does a good G90 go for? pretty much $5000+. If the relationship had remained the same, the great G90 would be $2500. So, although the CRT prices are falling, they are falling more slowly and holding on better than what was expected or what has happened to digitals.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | | VDC just jacked up the price of new 9" tubes to $1650, so don't expect the price of high end sets to come down any time soon. |
being in touch with reality was never one of their strong points. Maybe the flight simulator market with big governemnt dollars will support paying $1700. a tube but the HT market sure in the hell won't. I was hoping when they moved tube production here from Japan they would actually lower the price a little, not jack it up $800.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | | I really wonder if the world one day will come to it's senses and go back to paying real money for stuff that lasts. That's been my soapbox for years.. |
This is more complex that you make it out. For instance, let's say my digital camera from 6 years ago what repairable and lasted 20 years. Why do I care? I can get a much better one for cheaper now.
So, if I have the choice of paying $10,000 for electronic XXX that will last 10 years or $3000 for a version that will last 3 years, it depends upon the device, but for many of them (for instance the digital camera, portable music player, etc) I'll take the $3000 for 3 years because my total 10 year expenditure is the same, yet every 3 years I get a better device.
I don't have a CRT PJ because I'm some luddite that just loves analog tech or anything like that. I have one because I'm cheap!!! I can't get the level of performance I get for the money I've spent with any other PJ out there! That is the reason I have one.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| draganm wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | VDC just jacked up the price of new 9" tubes to $1650, so don't expect the price of high end sets to come down any time soon. |
being in touch with reality was never one of their strong points. Maybe the flight simulator market with big governemnt dollars will support paying $1700. a tube but the HT market sure in the hell won't. I was hoping when they moved tube production here from Japan they would actually lower the price a little, not jack it up $800. |
My guess is tube sales to the HT market represents less than 1% of VDCs annual sales. Given that, loosing that 1% to make more on the other 99% is a wise move. Many of those other markets (simulators and such) are locked into CRT tech for a variety of reasons, so they can push them a little on the $$$.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| draganm wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | VDC just jacked up the price of new 9" tubes to $1650, so don't expect the price of high end sets to come down any time soon. |
being in touch with reality was never one of their strong points. Maybe the flight simulator market with big governemnt dollars will support paying $1700. a tube but the HT market sure in the hell won't. I was hoping when they moved tube production here from Japan they would actually lower the price a little, not jack it up $800. |
Maybe not, but usually profit making is something a company needs to do. CRT prices are dictated by costs, not what WE want to pay for them.. 
I'm blowing some sets now out at below cost, the ES focusing sets. It makes sense to me to blow them out to get rid of them, but it doesn't make sense to VDC to sell tubes at below cost. Just ask Sony what happens when you run in the red, you end up laying off 10,000 people. 
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | I really wonder if the world one day will come to it's senses and go back to paying real money for stuff that lasts. That's been my soapbox for years.. |
This is more complex that you make it out. For instance, let's say my digital camera from 6 years ago what repairable and lasted 20 years. Why do I care? I can get a much better one for cheaper now.
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Yes, but do you really NEED a 10mp camera? I'd be perfectly happy with having my 8 year old Olympus 1.3m camera still working, as most of my picture taking is 640 X 480 for eBay.
People are all bitching about being green and banning incandescent light bulbs, but look at the big picture (pun intended). How much energy is used manufacturing disposable sh*t over saving 70 watts by using a 100 watt incandescent vs a 30 watt fluorescent?
I've said it before: I'd rather pay $500 for a 20 gig hard drive that's guaranteed not to crash for 15 years over buying a 200 gig hard drive for $99, and lose 100s of emails and other data in 3 years when it crashes.
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | My guess is tube sales to the HT market represents less than 1% of VDCs annual sales. Given that, loosing that 1% to make more on the other 99% is a wise move. Many of those other markets (simulators and such) are locked into CRT tech for a variety of reasons, so they can push them a little on the $$$. |
| Curt Palme wrote: | | Maybe not, but usually profit making is something a company needs to do. CRT prices are dictated by costs, not what WE want to pay for them.. |
So back when they were selling them for $900. a tube they were actually losing money? I don't think so. If they can get $1700. per tube then more power to them, but I think it's just another nail in the coffin for CRT. Even the flight simulator guys are going to think twice before dumping $5K to retube just one projector. I mean you can now get a brand new 1080P digital for the cost of a single 9" bare tube. You don't need a BA in business to see that's an absolute moronic move on their part.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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| draganm wrote: | | Person99 wrote: | | My guess is tube sales to the HT market represents less than 1% of VDCs annual sales. Given that, loosing that 1% to make more on the other 99% is a wise move. Many of those other markets (simulators and such) are locked into CRT tech for a variety of reasons, so they can push them a little on the $$$. |
| Curt Palme wrote: | | Maybe not, but usually profit making is something a company needs to do. CRT prices are dictated by costs, not what WE want to pay for them.. |
So back when they were selling them for $900. a tube they were actually losing money? I don't think so. If they can get $1700. per tube then more power to them, but I think it's just another nail in the coffin for CRT. Even the flight simulator guys are going to think twice before dumping $5K to retube just one projector. I mean you can now get a brand new 1080P digital for the cost of a single 9" bare tube. You don't need a BA in business to see that's an absolute moronic move on their part. |
Didnt' say they were not making money, but they may not have been making any, we don't know.
Secondly, digitals just won't work in many applications. Also, don't forget the labor involved in changing a bulb every 3000 hours vs. tubes every 12000--that costs alot.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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wallace123456
Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Northwest VA area
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| Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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| garyfritz wrote: | | (BTW nice to have you back, Dave! |
+1 
wallace
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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Also, I think the $900 tubes were rebuilds, not new. WE all know about rebuilds...
The jump was from $1295 to $1650 per new Panasonic tube. I don't like it either, but look at gas prices. Don't get me started on effing gas prices!
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overclkr
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 4227
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| Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | Also, I think the $900 tubes were rebuilds, not new. WE all know about rebuilds...
The jump was from $1295 to $1650 per new Panasonic tube. I don't like it either, but look at gas prices. Don't get me started on effing gas prices! |
That's f*cking ludacrist big dog. There is NO REASON why they should be milking us with that kind of price. There is no way in hell I'll ever pay that much money for a single tube. 
It's almost like VDC is trying to kill the CRT market single handedly...........
Cliffy
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:07 am Post subject: |
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But it's not out of line for projectors that are in flight simulators. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to be paying $300 per 9" tube, $200 for an 8". Or how about $50 to $100 per inch.. (that's what I charge myself out at....<rimshot>)
It just means that CRT will remain in the hands of the select few, those that can appreciate that a 10 year old Marquee freshly retubed will still be cheaper than buying $800 bulb POS from Costco.
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whats6x7
Joined: 04 Oct 2006
Posts: 5924
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:52 am Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | | Or how about $50 to $100 per inch.. (that's what I charge myself out at....<rimshot>) |
I tried that but I just can't live on $150 twice a week.
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overclkr
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 4227
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:00 am Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | But it's not out of line for projectors that are in flight simulators. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to be paying $300 per 9" tube, $200 for an 8". Or how about $50 to $100 per inch.. (that's what I charge myself out at....<rimshot>)
It just means that CRT will remain in the hands of the select few, those that can appreciate that a 10 year old Marquee freshly retubed will still be cheaper than buying $800 bulb POS from Costco. |
Oh don't get me wrong big dog. All you have to do is look on my ceiling in my theater to see the writing on the wall. I paid if I remember right 1200 bucks per tube when I retubed the stack. It was not cheap but damn big dog that price is VERY HIGH.
I just hope I don't have to buy any tubes in the near future.
Cliffy
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:06 am Post subject: |
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Well 'tis true, you and Art are at the extreme end of the scale of HT costs.
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