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Cine 7
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 26
Location: Singapore
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:42 pm Post subject: HD audio without HDMI |
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I own a DENON AVR 5800 (2001 model or so with no HDMI...) which is not capable of decoding DTS-MA or DOLBY TrueHD. I am not willing to invest in a new receiver again since the 5800 was very expensive and apart from the lack of HDMI in and HD-audio decoding still excellent.
In order to still get DTS-HD and DOLBY TrueHD I am thinking of connecting the analog 5.1 RCA output of the BR/HD-DVD player to the 5.1 input of the DENON. The 5800 actually has two 7.1 RCA inputs for external sources.
I haven't really looked that much into the capabilities of the analog 5.1 outputs of current HD players yet. What I would like to know is:
1) is the analog output signal over the RCA 5.1 out on HD player always uncompressed for DTS-MA and DOLBY TrueHD?
The players DACs have to be 24BIT/192kHz capable.
2) are there even any HD players with decent DACs and a good processor (bass management etc.)?
3) are there any players with a 7.1 analog output (haven't seen one so far)? If there isn't that would mean no surround back channels! 
4) if the disc states "5.1 uncompressed PCM audio" will this be output 1:1 over analog 5.1 connection?
5) if I were to use the COAX of OPTICAL connection to my DENON from the HD Player what is the bit rate for "downmixed" DTS-MA and DD True HD? And for standard DTS and DD Is it still 1500kpbs for DTS and 448kbps for DD?
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 5:56 pm Post subject: Re: HD audio without HDMI |
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| Cine 7 wrote: |
1) is the analog output signal over the RCA 5.1 out on HD player always uncompressed for DTS-MA and DOLBY TrueHD?
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Yes.
| Cine 7 wrote: | | 2) are there even any HD players with decent DACs and a good processor (bass management etc.)? |
I have not kept up with all of them, but the HD-A1 actually got an audiophile following for being the best performing CD player under $1000.
| Cine 7 wrote: | | 3) are there any players with a 7.1 analog output (haven't seen one so far)? If there isn't that would mean no surround back channels! |
No--no players. People either:
1) live without the rears.
2) run "Y" adapters so the surround and back of a given side get the same signal (just like real movie theaters).
Number 2 is what I do. In practice, it is not that much different than a 7.1 mix created with DSP from a 5.1. About the only time I can really hear a difference in a DSP mix and the simple splitting is around the room spinning effects or slow flyovers.
| Cine 7 wrote: | | 4) if the disc states "5.1 uncompressed PCM audio" will this be output 1:1 over analog 5.1 connection? |
If the player supports it. Not sure on the BD side, but all HD DVD players with analog do.
| Cine 7 wrote: | | 5) if I were to use the COAX of OPTICAL connection to my DENON from the HD Player what is the bit rate for "downmixed" DTS-MA and DD True HD? And for standard DTS and DD Is it still 1500kpbs for DTS and 448kbps for DD? |
I can't remember the particulars on each of the BD players, but the HD DVD players will down mix the 3-6 mbps DD+ to the maximum DTS bit rate of 1.5 Mbps and reencode it as DTS and send it to your receiver like that. They will not downmix the True HD, only the DD+ signal. They will however reencode DTS-HD as 1.5 DTS.
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Dave
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Cine 7
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 26
Location: Singapore
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I have not kept up with all of them, but the HD-A1 actually got an audiophile following for being the best performing CD player under $1000. |
Got the below specs from the TOSHIBA webpage on this player:
Audio
Built-in Dolby® Digital, Dolby® TrueHD, Dolby® Digital Plus, DTS®, and DTS® HD (core only)
Dolby® True HD Compatible (2 Channel, 5.1 channel enabled via firmware update)
Multi-Channel 24-bit/192kHz Audio DACs
HDMI Audio support up to 5.1 L-PCM
Dynamic Range Control
Seems to have 24BIT/192kHz DACs for all 6 channels.
| Quote: | No--no players. People either:
1) live without the rears.
2) run "Y" adapters so the surround and back of a given side get the same signal (just like real movie theaters).
Number 2 is what I do. In practice, it is not that much different than a 7.1 mix created with DSP from a 5.1. About the only time I can really hear a difference in a DSP mix and the simple splitting is around the room spinning effects or slow flyovers. |
A bit disappointing actually. What about all the native 7.1 DOLBY TrueHD and DTS-MA tracks (few as they may be)? Maybe future players will have a 7.1 analog out?
| Quote: | | I can't remember the particulars on each of the BD players, but the HD DVD players will down mix the 3-6 mbps DD+ to the maximum DTS bit rate of 1.5 Mbps and reencode it as DTS and send it to your receiver like that. They will not downmix the True HD, only the DD+ signal. They will however reencode DTS-HD as 1.5 DTS. |
Well, 1500kpbs is still better than 448kpbs for standard DD. I take it that the quality of any such down mixed track will outperform a standard DD and DTS from normal DVDs?
What is the bitrate for standard DD and DTS on BR/HD anyway?
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Cine 7 wrote: |
A bit disappointing actually. What about all the native 7.1 DOLBY TrueHD and DTS-MA tracks (few as they may be)? Maybe future players will have a 7.1 analog out? |
I've not seen any plans. I assume they think people will move to HDMI to get that. 
| Cine 7 wrote: | | Well, 1500kpbs is still better than 448kpbs for standard DD. I take it that the quality of any such down mixed track will outperform a standard DD and DTS from normal DVDs? |
Yes, since 1.5 is double to triple the bit rate you get from pretty much any DVD.
| Cine 7 wrote: | | What is the bitrate for standard DD and DTS on BR/HD anyway? |
I've not seen a DD track on an HD DVD, they all have a minimum 3 mbps DD+ track. DD on a DVD is 448 and DTS is 768. A very few early DTS DVDs were released with 1.5 but that is rare.
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Dave
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Cine 7
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 26
Location: Singapore
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| Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I've not seen a DD track on an HD DVD, they all have a minimum 3 mbps DD+ track. DD on a DVD is 448 and DTS is 768. A very few early DTS DVDs were released with 1.5 but that is rare. |
I noticed that on some Blue Rays it is stated that there is Dolby Digital 5.1 on it? On the packing I might see a DOLBY log but no indication if DD+ or TrueHD? Will this minimun be a 3mbps DD+ track? Is there even such a thing as a Standard Definition DD and DTS for either BR of HD-DVD?
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Cine 7 wrote: | | Quote: | | I've not seen a DD track on an HD DVD, they all have a minimum 3 mbps DD+ track. DD on a DVD is 448 and DTS is 768. A very few early DTS DVDs were released with 1.5 but that is rare. |
I noticed that on some Blue Rays it is stated that there is Dolby Digital 5.1 on it? On the packing I might see a DOLBY log but no indication if DD+ or TrueHD? Will this minimun be a 3mbps DD+ track? Is there even such a thing as a Standard Definition DD and DTS for either BR of HD-DVD? |
Yes, I believe BD does allow lower quality audio. HD DVD requires at least a 3 mbps DD+ track.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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Cine 7
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 26
Location: Singapore
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | Yes, I believe BD does allow lower quality audio. HD DVD requires at least a 3 mbps DD+ track. |
I had to look this one up myself as I was curious myself.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_high_definition_optical_disc_formats
Lossy
Dolby Digital: Mandatory @ 640 Kbit/s on BD, Mandatory @ 504 Kbit/s on HD-DVD
DTS: Mandatory @ 1.5 Mbit/s on both
Dolby Digital Plus: Optional @ 1.7 Mbit/s on BD, Mandatory @ 3.0 Mbit/s on HD-DVD
DTS-HD High Resolution: Optional @ 6.0 Mbit/s on BD, Optional @ 3.0 Mbit/s on HD-DVD
Lossless
Linear PCM: Mandatory on both
Dolby TrueHD: Optional on BD, Mandatory on HD-DVD
DTS-HD Master Audio: Optional on both
So it depends. Plus's and minus's for both.
Kal
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Cine 7
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 26
Location: Singapore
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Lossy
Dolby Digital: Mandatory @ 640 Kbit/s on BD, Mandatory @ 504 Kbit/s on HD-DVD |
Do all standard DD decoder (current and older) decode DD at these bit rates? I think 640 Kbps is the maximum for standard DD? Would the surround processor in my DENON from 2001 be able to handle DD at these bit rates?
I take it that for this no HDMI connection is necessary and that this can be sent to any receiver via normal TOS-Link and Coax connection? If not, is there a downres function to 448kbps?
| Quote: | Lossless
Linear PCM: Mandatory on both |
So this is mandatory on each disc? Is that always 24Bit/96kHz (14Mbps) or 24bit/192kHz (28mbps)?
If so, then why bother about any of the DD or DTS formats?
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kal
Forum Administrator
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Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Cine 7 wrote: | | Quote: | Lossy
Dolby Digital: Mandatory @ 640 Kbit/s on BD, Mandatory @ 504 Kbit/s on HD-DVD |
Do all standard DD decoder (current and older) decode DD at these bit rates? I think 640 Kbps is the maximum for standard DD? Would the surround processor in my DENON from 2001 be able to handle DD at these bit rates? |
640K is indeed the max for 'standard' Dolby Digital. All DD decoders have to do this. Even ones from the mid to late 1990's.
Likewise these same preamps/processors/receivers can decode DTS up to 1.5 Mbps. This is the "core" signal in DTS-HD Master Audio. Very nice quality of sound boost over 448 or 640 Kbps. Example: I watched the Simpsons Movie last night and sound was decoded by my circa late 1990's Acurus ACT-3 prepro which only does toslink/SPDIF input. I chose lossless DTS-HD MA so it only gets the 1.5Mbps "Core" signal which is still better than 448 or 640Kbps. I wish more discs would do DTS-HD MA as those of us without HDMI setup for audio can really benefit.
| Cine 7 wrote: | | I take it that for this no HDMI connection is necessary and that this can be sent to any receiver via normal TOS-Link and Coax connection? If not, is there a downres function to 448kbps? |
Correct. The 640Kbps DD signal can be sent via TOSlink/SPDIF coax.
| Cine 7 wrote: | | Quote: | Lossless
Linear PCM: Mandatory on both |
So this is mandatory on each disc? Is that always 24Bit/96kHz (14Mbps) or 24bit/192kHz (28mbps)?
If so, then why bother about any of the DD or DTS formats? |
SPDIF/TOSlink only has the bandwidth to carry 2-channel lossless PCM. You need HDMI to carry the full 5+ channels that you want for movies. Very preamps/processors/receivers have HDMI to send be able to receive the linear PCM signal.
Kal
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Cine 7
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 26
Location: Singapore
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Likewise these same preamps/processors/receivers can decode DTS up to 1.5 Mbps. This is the "core" signal in DTS-HD Master Audio. |
That I knew. We remember the early DVDs with full bit rate DTS and especially Laser Disc. All DTS decoder could decode this.
| Code: | | Very nice quality of sound boost over 448 or 640 Kbps. |
Haven't had the opportunity to hear this yet?
| Quote: | | SPDIF/TOSlink only has the bandwidth to carry 2-channel lossless PCM. You need HDMI to carry the full 5+ channels that you want for movies. Very preamps/processors/receivers have HDMI to send be able to receive the linear PCM signal. |
Yes, for multi channel PCM HDMI is required. What I meant was that this can be fed to older non HDMI receivers via analog RCA.
I wasn't aware that PCM is actually a mandatory format on either BR or HD-DVD? So, what is the resolution 24/96 or 24/192?
how does PCM compare to DOLBY TrueHD and DTS-MA? Should be identical?
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Cine 7 wrote: | | Code: | | Very nice quality of sound boost over 448 or 640 Kbps. |
Haven't had the opportunity to hear this yet? |
Same sound quality increase that we got on DVD from full rate DTS (1.5Mbit) vs. 448Kbit Dolby Digital. I have a bunch of older DVD's with full-rate DTS and always liked the extra resolution it provided.
| Cine 7 wrote: | | Quote: | | SPDIF/TOSlink only has the bandwidth to carry 2-channel lossless PCM. You need HDMI to carry the full 5+ channels that you want for movies. Very preamps/processors/receivers have HDMI to send be able to receive the linear PCM signal. |
Yes, for multi channel PCM HDMI is required. What I meant was that this can be fed to older non HDMI receivers via analog RCA. |
Sure, as long as the source has discrete 5 or 7 channel analog outputs. Not very convenient if you have more than one device with 5/7 analog RCA outputs however as no receiver has multiple 5/7-channel analog input that I know about. You need to use a switcher. The quality of the DACs in the source device can be an issue as well. I'd rather pay to have one set of high quality DACs in the receiver/prepro then have DACs in multiple sources since the manufacturers usually don't want to spend a fortune on source device DACs that 99% of people won't even use.
| Cine 7 wrote: | | I wasn't aware that PCM is actually a mandatory format on either BR or HD-DVD? So, what is the resolution 24/96 or 24/192? |
From checking wikipedia the specs say it's mandatory. Doesn't mention bitrate so I'm assuming it's not defined. There's no standard.
| Cine 7 wrote: | | how does PCM compare to DOLBY TrueHD and DTS-MA? Should be identical? |
As long as you're referring to multi-channel PCM with the same number of channels as TrueHD/DTS-HD MA then yes, in theory it should be the same.
There are a lot of receivers/prepro's that have HDMI 1.3 (only HDMI 1.2) so they can't decode the newer formats internally, instead you feed the receiver/prepro a multichannel PCM signal over HDMI and you essentially get the same thing.
There really shouldn't be any difference. Though there have been a few discussions over at AVS over the last month or two I'm told where people are saying that there's actually a difference. Haven't read them, not sure what the logic for the difference is.
Kal
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Cine 7
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 26
Location: Singapore
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Not very convenient if you have more than one device with 5/7 analog RCA outputs however as no receiver has multiple 5/7-channel analog input that I know about. |
My DENON has two sets of 7.1 RCA External analog inputs. 
| Quote: | | The quality of the DACs in the source device can be an issue as well. |
Exactly, that was one of my questions in my first post. I guess when OPPO will release a BR Player it might be what I am looking for (and at a very good price at that).
| Quote: | | I'd rather pay to have one set of high quality DACs in the receiver/prepro then have DACs in multiple sources since the manufacturers usually don't want to spend a fortune on source device DACs that 99% of people won't even use. |
True, but if you don't want to buy a new receiver than you either go the analog way or use SPDIF/TOSlink and be satisfied with 1.5mbps.
Which of these is the better option?
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
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Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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Which is the better option would depend partially on the quality of the DACs in the source device, but I would imagine that even 'average' DACs in the source device outputing full lossless would sound better than great DACs in a prepro/receiver processing a 448Kbps DD signal.
My prepro doesn't have discrete analog inputs so I don't even have that option. (It's from 1998 or so). I'm in the market for a new one but am taking my time/in no hurry. Looking at the Anthem D2 (LCM, HDMI 1.2 support) or possibly one of the cheaper ones from Emotiva due out mid 2008 (HDMI 1.3 support so it does onboard decoding).
While multichannel PCM via HDMI 1.2 shouldn't be any different than onboard decoding via HDMI 1.3, since I'm in no hurry I'm thinking I may wait for true onboard HDMI 1.3 since I do want to keep this prepro for a long time (my last one's 10 years old and still works great). A lot of the better manufacturers offer 100% upgradeable solutions however (such as Anthem) so there's little worry about buying something today.
The longer you wait however, the cheaper things get.
Kal
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Cine 7
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 26
Location: Singapore
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Which is the better option would depend partially on the quality of the DACs in the source device, but I would imagine that even 'average' DACs in the source device outputing full lossless would sound better than great DACs in a prepro/receiver processing a 448Kbps DD signal. |
My thinking exactly. But would it sound better than having great DACs decode 1.5mbps DTS or DD from BR/HD-DVD? My guess is YES!
| Quote: | | The longer you wait however, the cheaper things get. |
Hear yah!  HT is becoming more and more like IT now! Welcome to the digital age!!
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4899
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | | Person99 wrote: | | Yes, I believe BD does allow lower quality audio. HD DVD requires at least a 3 mbps DD+ track. |
I had to look this one up myself as I was curious myself.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_high_definition_optical_disc_formats
Lossy
Dolby Digital: Mandatory @ 640 Kbit/s on BD, Mandatory @ 504 Kbit/s on HD-DVD
DTS: Mandatory @ 1.5 Mbit/s on both
Dolby Digital Plus: Optional @ 1.7 Mbit/s on BD, Mandatory @ 3.0 Mbit/s on HD-DVD
DTS-HD High Resolution: Optional @ 6.0 Mbit/s on BD, Optional @ 3.0 Mbit/s on HD-DVD
Lossless
Linear PCM: Mandatory on both
Dolby TrueHD: Optional on BD, Mandatory on HD-DVD
DTS-HD Master Audio: Optional on both
So it depends. Plus's and minus's for both.
Kal |
Not sure what you mean by "depends". The fact is, BD allows lower quality audio. BD does not have to support anything at all above 1.5. HD DVD requires at least 3.0
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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Right ok. That's true. What I meant by "depends" is that depending on what format(s) the studio choses to use, sometimes BD might be better, sometimes HD-DVD.
Examples:
If a studio likes DD+ then HD-DVD provides 3mbit while BD only does 1.7mbit.
But if a studio is into DTS-HD HR, then BD wins at 6Mbit as HD-DVD is 3Mbit.
But you're exactly right in that if you look at the *minimum* required, the HD-DVD specs are better since DD+ is *always* required on HD-DVD discs.
I haven't really been paying that much attention since I can't do DD+, DTS-HD HR, or the lossless formats: Does this minimum really come into play much for people that have both formats and can use these next-gen audio formats? I thought most discs did at least one lossless no?
What I mean is, the disc where it really matters never have just 1.5Mbit DTS do they?
Kal
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