CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum

jantje112 · Joined: 17 Jul 2006 Posts: 328

r.bauer · Joined: 08 Apr 2006 Posts: 280 Location: The Netherlands

jantje112 · Joined: 17 Jul 2006 Posts: 328

drudozucker · Joined: 04 Jan 2008 Posts: 38 Location: Portugal

Hi, this morning I did some more tests. The projector had been powered down for about 12 hours, so was at approx. 18C (reading via projector's own temp. diagnostic). The picture was fine for approx. 15 minutes during which there was no unusual noise emitted from the projector (just the usual fan noise). Then the problem started (T = 28C), initially only occasionally, then more and more frequently. At the very same rate the tiny noise, I reported yesterday, started, clearly emitted from (or close to) the position of the voltage quadrupler. I might be wrong, but the sound was somewhat like sparking (imagination?).

Therefore my question is this: could it be that the EHT board is actually fine but the quadrupler is defect. Maybe there is an internal breakdown inside a capacitor. Unfortunately I don't have any circuit diagrams, so I don't know the internals of the quadrupler. This might also explain the smell of overheated electronics I had observed once, after power up, but clearly at least 10h before the problem first appeared.

What do the experts make out of this?

Thanks a lot for the good input.

Regards
Udo

Ile · Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:56 am Post subject: Re: Result of some more tests

drudozucker · Joined: 04 Jan 2008 Posts: 38 Location: Portugal

r.bauer · Joined: 08 Apr 2006 Posts: 280 Location: The Netherlands

Hi Udo,

If you have arcing, it only gets worse, and usually very quickly! Arcing creates carbon which is a good conductor. It is very unlikely that it takes 15 minutes until the arcing starts.
It is a (thermal) problem on the EHT board. My EHT board showed exactly the same problems, after increased temperature the problem starts. The problem got worse and worse over time and finaly the projector shuts down after only a couple of minutes.

Do not try to open or fix the quadrupler yourself. But while you have it removed, look for black spots. You might, for a test, reinstall it with a piece of (silicone)rubber between the quad and the metal chassis. See if it takes longer before the problem starts. You have to remove a side panel to take the quad out. Unplug the set from mains before you do this and wait a minute before EHT/Quad removal.

PM sent.

drudozucker · Joined: 04 Jan 2008 Posts: 38 Location: Portugal

**Curt Palme** · Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:24 pm Post subject:

While I guess it's possible that the quad can cause your problem, usually they will either show visible signs of arcing, or cause the set to go into EHT shutdown mode. If the quad is arcing externally, you'd be able to smell/hear it. Trust me on that one.. Smile

I've got the EHT board in stock. Testing today, emailing you tomorrow.

Cheers!

drudozucker · Joined: 04 Jan 2008 Posts: 38 Location: Portugal

r.bauer · Joined: 08 Apr 2006 Posts: 280 Location: The Netherlands

The plastic side cover of the Cine9 has to be removed. It is held in place with 4 philips screws. The side panel is sort of hinged at the bottom when ceiling mount by the plastic 'fingers'. Removal is a 20 sec job. I doubt whether the top cover has to be removed for this, but it can be removed anyway, makes working on the projector much easier. Put it aside in place where it cannot be damaged accidentally.

The Cine9 has an alu plate behind the fans to silence the sound from them. Is this plate in the way? Probably not.

EDIT: Side panel mounting description changed.

drudozucker · Joined: 04 Jan 2008 Posts: 38 Location: Portugal

drudozucker · Joined: 04 Jan 2008 Posts: 38 Location: Portugal

Hi, I did remove the quad from my Cine 9 (I wished to have smaller hands and certainly not looking forward to get the white connector back into the white 7 pin connector at the pcb: any recommendations?).

Checking with bare eyes there seems nothing wrong, except the thin black wire (is it ground?) was squeezed together, removing part of its insulation [no bare wire visible9, as it was not running through its dedicated groove. I then cleaned the potting compound using IPA to remove any dust and checked the potting surface with a magnifier glass.

With a 12x magnifier glass I can see that the potting material, at least at its surface, contains many tiny cracks as if there was once thermal stress on it. You cannot feel the cracks, you simple see the different zones in the material. If it would be crystalline material, which I assume it isn't, you would say, that you see the borders between mono-crystallized zones. I could also see lighter and darker areas, as if the compound wasn't perfectly mixed. This might all be normal.

In addition, I believe I found a very tiny hole which could be a track, but I could be wrong, as you really would need a microscope to check it in more details.

I can also see that the potting compound has a shrinkage as there is a small gap between potting compound and metal case (could also be normal).

Smelling at the part, I believe to get a tiny smell, like carbonized material, but the smell is located at the low voltage end of the part (which is on the top, when installed) - see note below.

I could reinstall the quad a little distance from the case using some spacers but I am unclear if that would negatively affect anything in function or cooling. I am not entirely sure from above circuit diagram (1.png, see Ile's contribution) whether the case is a ground connection or electrically floating.

Note: remember that there was a heavy smell about 10 operating hours before the fault first appeared. This smell clearly came from the position of the quad (but there is also a fan close by, so that the smell might have originated inside the case). This happened immediately after power up although it took me several minutes before I realized it, at which time I powered down the projector, waited approx. 30mins to cool it down. When I then re-powered the smell had gone and the projector behaved normally. Approx. 10 operating hours later, after using it for approx. 1h (1440p@60Hz) the problem started.

Conclusion? All in all, what do the experts recommend to try next. In my own mind I believe it would be prudent to replace both quad and EHT board to be on the save side. I hope Curt has both in stock.

Looking forward to your recommendations.

Udo

**Curt Palme** · Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 4:11 pm Post subject:

THe quads are impossible to find, and are $650 from BArco.. Sad

I only have hte older style quads and EHT boards in stock. I'd start with the EHT board, if that doesn't work, then I can send you the old style quad and EHT board, you send me back yours.

I am working with a local guy to repair the sealed quads, he's repaired two for me so far, but one failed again. I've got 3 Marquee HVPS and 4 more quads that I'm sending him this week. ONce I'm sure his repairs are solid, maybe I'll be able to offer quadrupler rebuilding services, but we need to negotiate the price as well.. Smile

Right now the quadruplers are disposable.

drudozucker · Joined: 04 Jan 2008 Posts: 38 Location: Portugal

**Curt Palme** · Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 4:53 pm Post subject:

Let me know what kind of support you get from Barco. Rumor has it that they are giving lousy support to CRT as they want everyone to switch over to digital.

drudozucker · Joined: 04 Jan 2008 Posts: 38 Location: Portugal

drudozucker · Joined: 04 Jan 2008 Posts: 38 Location: Portugal

r.bauer · Joined: 08 Apr 2006 Posts: 280 Location: The Netherlands

The Cine9 is an almost complete redesign from the Bg1209s. Some parts, like the EHT chain haven't really changed, but things like Hor-defl, power supply, convergence, astig and focus are completely redesinged. Most exiting new step that barco has taken is the introduction of a DSP which feeds a bunch of DAC's to feed the convergence-, focus- and astig-end-stages with a digitally generated signal. This gives an accuracy which is almost insane! No longer are these delicate signals generated and altered in the analog domain, but it is entirely done in the digital domain. Applause for those Barco boys, they did a really fine job on this chassis. There is no emoticon that can express how cool this really is.

To answer your question:
The Quad is mounted differently in a Cine9 than in a BG1209s. The EHT wires on the Cine9 come out at the side while in the BG1209s they come out of the top. You can use a quad from a late model 808s, which also has undergone this change.
The Quad-mechanics (and partnumber) are more related to the chassis than to the electronics.

BG1209s Quad mount:

BG808s Quad mount:(Chassis is quite similar to the Cine9)

This is the best picture I could find from a Cine9:
http://www.htforum.nl/yabbse/index.php?topic=15275.msg177396#msg177396

drudozucker · Joined: 04 Jan 2008 Posts: 38 Location: Portugal

Hi all, I promised to let you know what the fault has been and how it was fixed in the end:

Well, I contacted the Portuguese representative of Cineversum (btw. I also contacted the UK representative, as I had purchased the Cine 9 there whilst living in the UK, but they did not even care to respond to my email Sad

). The Portuguese representative was quick, friendly and efficient in discussing the fault. He agreed, that based on my description, the most likely cause could be a faulty Quad. I purchased a Quad, which he had directly sent from from Cineversum to me for speed. I installed it a few days ago and, guess what, the problem has been fixed.

In summary: the fault was caused by a broken Quad and Thumbs Up

for the Portuguese representative. Well done.

Once more I like to thank everybody who assisted to narrow down the fault. This allowed me to select the right component and hence saving on an (even more) expensive call-out of an service engineer.

Now I have to wait for Moome's EXT-HD (second batch) to arrive to be able to feed 1080p to my Barco. Unfortunately the HDFury did not work in my installation.

Regards

Udo