CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum

speedyandre · Joined: 18 Dec 2006 Posts: 291 Location: Netherlands

I wonder if this problem exists when using the vga output on the Moome box.
Has anyone tried this, of course with a pc's desktop as source on a hdmi input?
The difference is that the bnc RGB outputs have line drivers and they are routed from the vga output.

With a prof. Fluke 87 multimeter I measured 70 ohms on the 75 ohm resistors near the vga outputs and 65 ohm on the 75 ohm resistors near the bnc connectors.
This makes me think that the RGB signals may suffer a bit by a not-correct impedance but I'm not sure about that Rolling Eyes

Normally the resistance should be equal at both sides of a coax cable, now there is some difference.

André

bentson · Joined: 18 Jun 2007 Posts: 19

cliffnseattle · Joined: 16 Nov 2007 Posts: 23

I posted earlier in this thread, and have been e-mailing back and forth with Doug B to try and isolate what is going on. I should have more time tonight and later this week / weekend to help isolate what is going on, and would appreciate guidelines and help in setting up the tests / comparisons. So far I've just been doing informal "trying things out", but realize we're now deep in "alpha testing", and I need to be more structured with the usual testing approaches - e.g. just changing one thing at a time.

I know the basics of HT and CRT projectors, but am far from being an expert or even a "power user". I always use Doug B (or Drew Packard before him) for the real setup and convergence work. I can do basic input signal setup, image positioning, amplitude, blanking, brightness and contrast changes, but not much more (I used to be a little more aggressive with a Barco 801s, but I haven't invested the time in the NEC).

My setup:

Inputs to EXT: Moto DCH 3416 DVR (swapped with an older Moto 6412 earlier this week), Toshiba D3 HD DVD player (Tosh A3 sold by Costco, a few weeks old), Nintendo Wii (not hooked up to the EXT yet)

Output from EXT: VGA connector, cable with VGA on end, BNC on other -> NEC 6PGXtra

I didn't buy the DVI output option.

There's no switches in-between - the HD DVD and DVR boxes are going straight HDMI cables to the EXT.

Overall summary of my informal viewing / testing:

Basic functionality is all working - both the DVR and HD DVD display at 1080i/60 (I haven't tried 720p yet, partly because I only have a 720p/72 setting in the projector, and no 720p/60 settings) and can be switched with the remote or the little button on the EXT. TosLink audio switches as well. (I expect the Wii will work / switch as well, since I can switch to component, and the component input worked with the 6412 before I swapped it for the 3416).

The DVR picture quality is excellent - significantly better than using my old Key Digital component transcoder. No complaints at all from me (I've already dialed down brightness and contrast a little bit on the projector).

The HD DVD output is a little bit washed out, but I haven't A/B'ed the various output setup options. Can I get a quick explanation of the "Enhanced black" and "Enhanced RGB" options? I see one explanation (different thread) where "enhanced black" changes black from standard 7.5 IRE to 0 - why would I want to do this? Does turning the option "off" set black to 0 or 7.5? What does the "Enhanced RGB" option do? The Film / Video selection is set to "auto", should I set it to Film for everything?

In absence of a Vid Essentials type of setup HD DVD, I bought Planet Earth - the HD quality is gorgeous on this series (I saw some of the episodes on Discovery earlier this year, using the 6412 DVR, 1080i), and others have mentioned how great they look. So I don't think the source disc is an issue (a quote from a knowledgeable poster: "tried planet earth in 1080p/24 and it was sensational").

Problems or challenges:

HD DVD doesn't look quite as good as I expected (see above). I really don't think the EXT box is at fault (tonight I will swap cables and inputs between the DVR and Toshiba to eliminate any differences between HDMI input 1 and 2). My impressions may also be biased by how much improvement I see in the DVR display (this would mostly be HD TV series viewing - e.g. Heroes, Journeyman, Life, Reaper, etc). I'll try to quantify or capture better detail about the differences between the DVR picture and the HD DVD picture.

Remote control switching, as mentioned in many threads. Subjectively it seems to be getting better - it seems like the remote control switches 75% of the time now, instead of 10% as before. However, at some point I'll start writing down real numbers and a controlled test to help out Moome. I printed out the manual last night, and that should help.

"Button on the back" input switching works most of the time now, too (but not always). I'll keep better track of this, as well.

Gamma control - I can't tell differences by pressing the remote buttons. I don't know if this is because the remote may not be working, or other reasons. Do I need to open up the box to set the little gamma button dial to "max" and then use the remote, as mentioned in the manual? What do I look for, with the gamma adjustment?

"Edge enhancement" issues - now that there's pics posted in the forum, I know better what to look for. Part of my challenge, however, is that my projector convergence has slipped quite a bit (I have a bad system board, losing sync fairly often, and it's been a while since Doug has been here - that's why we're trying to get things sorted out, so he can make a trip to this area). The DVR image needed to be shifted back to the right, between the 6412 and 3416 (it's now at almost all 50% settings, which I take for a good sign), so my compensation has made the convergence slightly worse.

I assume audio output on the DVR and D3 should always be bitstream. I'd rather use the EXT box to switch the audio (instead of having to buy another Toslink cable - in the future, when I buy a higher-end dual format player, I'll reconsider audio options). I've had the EXT box "hang" on the audio at least twice now - switching the input back and forth has cleared it. I'll try to track this better in the future.

What else should I be trying and how can I better control my testing?

---

Opinion: While I love the functionality, and will not "go back" to older solutions, I'm slightly surprised at being an alpha tester (although maybe I shouldn't have been surprised, since this is a first release). This has become similar to what I do at work (at work it's software rather than hardware). I understand Moome is a one-person business and has limited time for testing, so I'm hoping the problems are quickly and decisively solved, and consideration of some form (future discount? priority in future orders?) is given for those that have spent hours helping Moome understand and solve the problems in this first round.

Thanks to all,

Cliff

cliffnseattle · Joined: 16 Nov 2007 Posts: 23

Turned mute off of receiver to watch TV show tonight - no sound. EXT is on "H2" (DVR). Pressed "1" on remote, EXT switched to "H1" (Tosh D3). Pressed "2" on remote. Nothing happens. Press "2" at half second intervals. On 14th press, EXT switches to "H2". No sound. Press "1" on remote. Nothing happens. Press "1" at half second intervals. On 11th press, EXT switches to "H1". Press "2" on remote. EXT immediately switches to "H2". Sound returns.

Nothing else was turned on or any other buttons pressed.

I will try some video testing later tonight.

cliffnseattle · Joined: 16 Nov 2007 Posts: 23

More Alpha Testing results:

Configured the DCH 3416 to always display in 1080i (last night it was outputting in 720p or 480i - it turns out Doug configured a 720p/60 setting on my projector after all - thanks, Doug! ... however, the 1080i looks significantly better due to being better converged). Also configured YCC / 444 for the video and bitstream for the audio.

Picture quality for the DVR is still very nice. I didn't get a chance to play with the HD DVD - that will be either tonight or this weekend.

Remote control and audio switching testing:

After reconfiguring the DCH 3416, audio was not present. Pressed "1", switched to "H1". Pressed "2", nothing happens. Press button at half second interval. On 15th button press, EXT switched to "H2". No audio. Pressed "1". Nothing happens. Press button at 1/2 sec intervals, on 11th press, EXT switches to "H1". Press "2", immediately switches back to "H2". Audio still not present. Press "3", EXT switches to "CO". Press 2, EXT switches back to "H2". Audio is now present.

When audio is not present, occasional loud clicks and pops can be heard. Obviously something is trying to synch up, but is having a hard time.

Performed one more audio test to verify the problem is not (just) at the source - switched to H1, then switched back to H2. No audio. Disconnected Toslink from EXT and connected it to the DVR Toslink output. Audio is present. When audio is "hung", the video output is fine.

So obviously either the DVR audio portion of the HDMI stream is getting confused, or the EXT audio switching is getting confused.

Gamma button test - I did not open up the box and twist the gamma button to max, just tried the remote. Pressed the gamma up button multiple times. After approx 8 clicks, the red light normally on above the yellow "on" light goes out and I lose video output. Pressing the gamma down button causes the red light to come back, video output to reappear, and the projector to re-synch. Usually the audio is hung at this point, and I have to switch to H1 and back a few times to clear audio.

Cliff

**kal** · Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:39 pm Post subject:

cliffnseattle · Joined: 16 Nov 2007 Posts: 23

Kal,

The audio switching hangs are not that big a deal - we currently switch the receiver between DVD and DVR, so it won't be any worse by not using the EXT to switch audio. It basically would save me buying one cable (the Tosh A3 and Moto DVR don't have coax digital output, only Toslink) and reduce our typical remote control usage. Of course maybe it's just time to buy a programmable remote and make everything easier. Smile

The gamma adjustment "losing video output" is also not that big of a deal - once set it shouldn't need to be adjusted. It's mainly a little disconcerting that adjusting it can cause video to be lost, as both you and I have seen.

So far I can't see any EE type of artifacts, so maybe that's not an issue for me. My VGA -> BNC cable is 20 feet, in case that makes a difference.

Doug, are there other specific issues to check? I'll play around with the HD DVD player in a day or two and see results there.

I hooked up the Wii this morning to the component input, configured it to widescreen 480p, working just fine (the projector doesn't have a setting for that resolution, so it needs convergence, but it still looks decent, and its playable).

So the EXT is working, modulo remote control unresponsiviness and audio switching hangs (neither are showstoppers), with HD DVD picture quality still to be played around with.

Cliff

**kal** · Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:04 pm Post subject:

speedyandre · Joined: 18 Dec 2006 Posts: 291 Location: Netherlands

**kal** · Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:47 pm Post subject:

WTS · Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 1276 Location: Calgary

Make sure you put in the necessary wire jumpers if you do that.

Speedy, lets not be jumping to any conclusions if you don't know what you are doing, okay!

speedyandre · Joined: 18 Dec 2006 Posts: 291 Location: Netherlands

dbaisey · Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:13 am Post subject:

Cliff,
Been e-mailing you. Just resent the last two again and called just now. Main thing right now is if you have RGBHV BNC out or VGA out.

The one scene that you said looked grainy from HD DVD D3 we need the title and chapter reference with a photo if you can take. Thanks, Doug

Sent this link also. http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=85935#85935 (Has photos) Please let us know
BTW: We call it beta testing. Very Happy

The 720P60 was just a test entry to check your old system board lock up from my generator. Didn't spend much time on it.

9kids · Joined: 25 Jun 2007 Posts: 138 Location: Manassas, VA

I think the VGA version has the problem too.
See this thread Moome ext and halo ringing with 1080p
I think tanwn was one of the first to point it out, he posted screen shots of the problem and I am pretty sure he has the VGA version. He does not come right out a say it but this comment leads me to think he has the VGA version

dbaisey · Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:04 am Post subject:

I sent a PM to him before to post it in the Official thread. It needs to be there. Doug

cliffnseattle · Joined: 16 Nov 2007 Posts: 23

Doug (and others),

I have the VGA version of the EXT (without DVI output). My cable has a VGA connector on one end and 5BNC connectors on the other (into the projector).

I'm at work at the moment and don't have my remote, but I don't remember an "info" button to display whether JP8 is set to RGBHV vs RGBS. I'd be surprised if it's set to RGBS (isn't that a minority of projectors?). Do I need to open up the box to verify this jumper, or is there a different button on the remote to display this value? I know my previous projector (Barco) required RGBS and opposite polarity on either H or V, but I thought the NEC does everything the typical way (RGBHV, usual polarity). The EXT manual does not show a button for the remote that displays RGBVH vs RGBS.

The "display" button displays something ending with 4, on my DVR ("H2") setting, which is what I expect (since I set it to YCC). The LED doesn't have enough room to display "444", though (there's only two chars available), so I'll write down the exact output tonight.

I can't try 1080p - none of my sources output it, and I'm pretty sure the NEC 6PGXtra won't support that bandwidth (Doug, correct me if I'm wrong). All of my testing has been 1080i/60 (or 480p/60 for the Wii, I believe).

As soon as I can, I'll test the HD DVD in more detail. I haven't yet A/B'ed the various video settings with a set scene, and I'll also vary between H1 and H2 (to rule out any differences between the two ports). I'll take a digital pic if it still looks "not as good as expected" as I've mentioned before.

I don't think I'm getting EE artifacts, as mentioned in the EE thread (the photos really help). However, since I'm running 1080i/60 maybe they're just not as visible.

(Doug, I just now read your e-mail and will reply later tonight.)

Cliff

moome · Joined: 01 Jun 2007 Posts: 497

larryk · Joined: 23 Aug 2007 Posts: 106 Location: Edmonton Alberta

My Ext. box with bnc/dvi arrived today. With fingers crossed I plugged it in and found a picture. good so far, I tryed to select inputs, adjust gamma, turn power no/off with remote and no go. Remote seems to be dead. I turned it on and off a few times but no luck. I tryed diferent batteries and no change. Can I change the gamma manually with the internal screw? Where is the screw on the board? I am going to play around with it for a while and let you know what I see. Although I am not coming to conclusions until I set things up properly it appears that my unit has the same ringing or shadow described by others.

**kal** · Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 2:10 pm Post subject:

larryk · Joined: 23 Aug 2007 Posts: 106 Location: Edmonton Alberta

Hey guys, I have been playing around with the unit this evening and have come to the conclusion that the remote is DOA. there is no signal being transmitted at all. The final test was to point it at my window MC IR receiver, it flashes an LED very time it sees IR whether it can reas it or not and nothing. Moome do you have any ideas on how to fix it? I will take it apart and see if there's a broken connection and put a meter on the board to ensure there is power from the battery compartment getting to the board.
I popped the hood on the processor and found what I assume is the manual screw for gamma adjustment. It is not in the area of the diagram though, I can only assume that the board was changed after the diagram was drawn, but is directly behind the ir receiver and about 2 inches back right? The only other blue box with a screw head sticking out is on the other end of the board about 1/2 inch from the end.
Anyway, I tried to adjust it while watching a test pattern and no change, I changed my brightness/contrast on my XG around hoping to enhance the effect, then turnedthe screw cw and ccw up to 20 or more turns again and no change. I went back to my HD Fury and found a better picture overall because there is no ringing. I have the ringing in all resolutions that I tryed. I know that it may take a while to sort things out as to what if anything can be done to make this unit usable so I'm being patient and just reporting what I have found in case it can help in any way. Please let me know if there is anything that tends to work and I will try it.
Larry