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IFB-FULLHD v3: Sony HDMI 1.4 Input Card
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CIR Engineering



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany

Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:56 pm    Post subject:

marksG70 wrote:
I feel you have more respect for him and his engineering workmanship. That helps with my confidence! My concern is I have already ordered the card will I get the fix/update?

I can't speak for Moome, but I suspect that if you send him an email asking him to hold your card for the fix, he will wait to ship Wink

craigr

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mp20748



Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM

Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:57 pm    Post subject:

hlmiii wrote:
Mike -

Would you advise me to pull my new board out and return it to Moome now?
Or wait?

Smile


I think you just got a later version card from him... check your PM. I want you to send your card directly to me.

I'll get it right back out to you, and you post the end results...
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CIR Engineering



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany

Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:59 pm    Post subject:

Nashou66 wrote:
Craig , will he implement the force YCbCr 422 or 444 to the marquee Vim HD also? I assume he will since they probably use the same software .

Athanasios


I suspect that Moome will do it for both Marquee and Sony as they are actually almost identical cards in that regard. I need the feature for Marquee as well as Sony so I hope so. I will send Moome an email regarding this as I need to specify some questions from him already.

craigr

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rabies_70



Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Posts: 1189
Location: Carlsbad, CA

TV/Projector: Sony G70Q

Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:08 pm    Post subject:

I haven't installed my new card yet...am I understanding that we are going to need to send them back to Mr Moome?

I am totally stoked you fellas in the know have put so much effort into making this the best card possible. Thank you for devoting so much time to this for us. I am even more excited to be in possession of one of these beauties and can't wait to get it after y'all work your magic.

Mr Moome, sir, do you want me to send the card back to you now?

Thanks again for making such a kick ass product.

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CIR Engineering



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany

Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:22 pm    Post subject:

rabies_70 wrote:
I haven't installed my new card yet...am I understanding that we are going to need to send them back to Mr Moome?

I am totally stoked you fellas in the know have put so much effort into making this the best card possible. Thank you for devoting so much time to this for us. I am even more excited to be in possession of one of these beauties and can't wait to get it after y'all work your magic.

Mr Moome, sir, do you want me to send the card back to you now?

Thanks again for making such a kick ass product.

Just to make a point. I don't think anyone should assume that their card will be upgrade free of charge by Moome. The original release card is quite good as-is, and that is the version I approved originally when I reviewed the beta card last year.

The version two of this card is supposed to have the new improvements added. These are specified explicitely in the advertisement put forth for version two.

Therefore, if you got a version two of this card, but it does not have the newest features (as advertised), than it is my opinion that Moome should update it under warranted to version two specs. However, if you have a version one card, than I think you should expect to have to pay for an upgrade.

The specific feature we are discussing is this one:

kal wrote:
Introducting the latest version of Moome's HDMI card for Sony CRT projectors: The IFB-FULLHD v2!

The new version 2 card includes special Mike Parker improvements for greater sharpness, higher bandwidth, less noise, and more!

Sharpness: Sharper Image (changes suggested by Mike Parker)
Picture purity: Cleaner/Less noise (changes suggested by Mike Parker)

"Moome's original design squashed (attenuated) 65% of the full bandwidth when running 1080p 60Hz. With Mike's new circuit, the FULLHD v2 now can resolve the entire 1080p 60Hz signal. With Moome's new design his card is the first and only option that can do full 1080p and YCbCr... the image is amazing!" - Craig Rounds, official FULLHD v2 tester, professional calibrator (www.cir-engineering.com)

Kal

http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=210761#210761

That is my opinion. I don't think it is fair to assume that a hardware manufacture (Moome) is responsible for upgrading hardware to the newest release free at any point. So in my opinion, if you have version one you should expect to pay for an upgrade if Moome even offers one. If you have version two, you should expect to receive what is being advertised and the card should be repaired.

my 0.02.

craigr

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rabies_70



Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Posts: 1189
Location: Carlsbad, CA

TV/Projector: Sony G70Q

Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:49 pm    Post subject:

I'm not asking him to upgrade it for free. I didn't order the first release because I was broke and very happy with my older Moome IFB HD. But when I saw Mike Parker and others had collaborated I pulled the trigger, there was no way I was going to miss out on that goodness.
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CIR Engineering



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany

Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:54 pm    Post subject:

rabies_70 wrote:
I'm not asking him to upgrade it for free. I didn't order the first release because I was broke and very happy with my older Moome IFB HD. But when I saw Mike Parker and others had collaborated I pulled the trigger, there was no way I was going to miss out on that goodness.

Sorry Ray, I didn't mean you specifically when I wrote that. I just mean that everyone who ever got this card should not automatically expect a free upgrade.

In my opinion, those who ordered version two should expect what was advertised, and they should get the card fixed if the wrong components are on it. But if someone has an earlier version, I don't think they can expect a free upgrade... that's all Smile

And this is all my opinion. Moome obviously is the decision maker with regards to his product.

craigr

_________________
JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying Wink
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Phone: 865-405-6892
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rabies_70



Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Posts: 1189
Location: Carlsbad, CA

TV/Projector: Sony G70Q

Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:05 pm    Post subject:

No worries bro. I didn't feel singled out. I was trying to clarify to others who might read the thread that I have purchased the newer card so there was no confusion. And I actually would not have too much an issue paying for the components, I just want to go to the top of the list for the rework( no selfishness there, right Twisted Evil )

Thanks again for all the hard work y'all.

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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7

Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:56 pm    Post subject:

FYI: Moome updated the user manual to better explain the 0-255/16-235 "range expand" function.

To access the manual, see the order page here: http://www.curtpalme.com/IFB-FULLHD.shtm

Kal

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JohnHWman



Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 215
Location: France - Grenoble

TV/Projector: Sony VPH-G90U (one unit for me, four others units repaired and sold)

Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 7:23 pm    Post subject:

CIR Engineering wrote:
Therefore, if you got a version two of this card, but it does not have the newest features (as advertised), than it is my opinion that Moome should update it under warranted to version two specs.... If you have version two, you should expect to receive what is being advertised and the card should be repaired.
Agree with you Craigr as I own one of the first batch of V2 boards, it should be fix on the output filters. The only thing I'm thinking now is to avoid sending back the board to Taiwan by applying the update myself (once it will be available) as I do have all the tools and skills to do so Wink

John

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mp20748



Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM

Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:47 am    Post subject:

A few from the batch also posted in the Marquee VIM thread hopefully showing what happens when the best filtering is painstakingly found thru trial and error.


Full 1080P > Moome V2 > My marquee 9500LC









Last edited by mp20748 on Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:06 am; edited 3 times in total
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY

Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:25 am    Post subject:

Mike this is the Sony Card's thread, shouldn't these pics be in the Marquee Vim-HD's thread? Wink

Nashou

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Marquee High Performance Bellows now shipping!!
Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
Marquee C-element and Bellow removal
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AnalogRocks
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Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G

Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:56 am    Post subject:

CIR Engineering wrote:


Furthermore, Moome is adding a feature that I requested to the newer firmware. He will be shipping me a beta chip to test soon. With the new feature you will still be able to select 15-235 or 0-255 for all digital inputs, but you will also be able to force the card to YCbCr 422 or 444. This is a feature that is usually only available in a high end video processor such as those offered by Lumagen.

craigr


Hi Craig,
Will the forced switch be a hardware switch or something controled by the remote?

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ysati



Joined: 05 Aug 2008
Posts: 44


Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:40 pm    Post subject:

Quote:

DVI only supports RGB at either 0-255 or 16-235. You can not make a DVI source (in almost every case) output YCbCr. Furthermore, any DVI source that supports YCbCr is outside of industry specifications. Only HDMI supports YCbCr.

To utilize YCbCr 444 or 422 you will need a source or video processor that can output YCbCr through HDMI. Many BluRay players support this as well as the Lumagen Radiance video processors.

The only DVI source that I am aware of that supports YCbCr is the HDG-4000 pattern generator from Accupel. However, thre are problems with thios because it is outside industry spec. Even though the Accupel can output YCbCr, it can not give the correct info frame data since it is DVI. The display device in this case needs to be manually set to YCbCr by the user because with DVI it can not happen automatically. This is one of the reasons I would like the new feature of manual selection for colorspace. The new colorspace selection feature is also useful when you get stuck in a situation where the auto selection does not work. This is what happened at my client's install last week. The IFB just stayed in RGB when I sent HDMI YCbCr.

craigr


My new configuration:
Pioneer LX71,
signal output HDMI, YUV or RGB.
Faroudja DVP1080,
DVI input
DVI Ouput, 1920/50Hz PAL or 60Hz NTSC
Color space to 0-255.
IFB FULLHD V2
RGB-444 and 16-235, Gamma 100%
G90
RGB mode, Color 6500K, brightness 50 or less, contrast 70
It works as well as John IFB card.
Perhaps a little less video noise.
Excellent fluidity. Colorimetry has punch.
I look forward to the upgrade

Yves
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY

Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:03 pm    Post subject:

CIR Engineering wrote:

DVI only supports RGB at either 0-255 or 16-235. You can not make a DVI source (in almost every case) output YCbCr. Furthermore, any DVI source that supports YCbCr is outside of industry specifications. Only HDMI supports YCbCr.

To utilize YCbCr 444 or 422 you will need a source or video processor that can output YCbCr through HDMI. Many BluRay players support this as well as the Lumagen Radiance video processors.



craigr


Ad the Tv-ones to the list also, i can choose what YUV (analog or digital) it will input and output over DVI

Athanasios

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ysati



Joined: 05 Aug 2008
Posts: 44


Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:25 am    Post subject:

[quote="ysati"]
Quote:


My new configuration:
Pioneer LX71,
signal output HDMI, YUV or RGB.
Faroudja DVP1080,
DVI input
DVI Ouput, 1920/50Hz PAL or 60Hz NTSC
Color space to 0-255.
IFB FULLHD V2
RGB-444 and 16-235, Gamma 100%
G90
RGB mode, Color 6500K, brightness 50 or less, contrast 70
It works as well as John IFB card.
Perhaps a little less video noise.
Excellent fluidity. Colorimetry has punch.
I look forward to the upgrade

Yves


I have four sources connected to the Faroudja.

For the Pioneer LX71 and Dune HD Center,
the space color is 0-255,for the Faroudja and 16-235,(Push A), on the IFB Moom.
But for the Toshiba HD XE1 and HD TV,
I must put on the 16-235 Faroudja?
I think it's the gamma is too high ...

Is this normal, there have such differences from one to another sources?

Is it possible to have a single setting gamma for all?

In the setup menu of the G90, we read:
Fh = 67.6KHz
Fv = 59.94Hz

INFORMATION FAROUDJA DVP1080

SET:DVI INPUT
16-235/0-255
sets the correct input signal level to match
the DVI input source.

NOTE#1:
0-255 is typical for digital display devices inputs(the processor output is 0-255),16-235 is typical for video sources. however, not all sources follow the rules.
If the processor DVI input level is set to 0-255 but the source is 16-235,the image will lack dynamic range.
NOTE#2:
To test what the output is from the source, put a 10 step gray scale pattern from a test pattern DVD.
Toggle between 16-235 and 0-255.
The correct setting is when all 10 bars visible and eveny lit. an incorrect setting will produce an image that either looks dull or the brightest and darkest bars are missing(clipping).

0-255 source + 16-235 Setting = Image too bright
16-235 Source + 0-255 setting = Dull image
Yves
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CIR Engineering



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany

Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:48 pm    Post subject:

[quote="ysati"]
ysati wrote:
Quote:


My new configuration:
Pioneer LX71,
signal output HDMI, YUV or RGB.
Faroudja DVP1080,
DVI input
DVI Ouput, 1920/50Hz PAL or 60Hz NTSC
Color space to 0-255.
IFB FULLHD V2
RGB-444 and 16-235, Gamma 100%
G90
RGB mode, Color 6500K, brightness 50 or less, contrast 70
It works as well as John IFB card.
Perhaps a little less video noise.
Excellent fluidity. Colorimetry has punch.
I look forward to the upgrade

Yves


I have four sources connected to the Faroudja.

For the Pioneer LX71 and Dune HD Center,
the space color is 0-255,for the Faroudja and 16-235,(Push A), on the IFB Moom.
But for the Toshiba HD XE1 and HD TV,
I must put on the 16-235 Faroudja?
I think it's the gamma is too high ...

Is this normal, there have such differences from one to another sources?

Is it possible to have a single setting gamma for all?

In the setup menu of the G90, we read:
Fh = 67.6KHz
Fv = 59.94Hz

INFORMATION FAROUDJA DVP1080

SET:DVI INPUT
16-235/0-255
sets the correct input signal level to match
the DVI input source.

NOTE#1:
0-255 is typical for digital display devices inputs(the processor output is 0-255),16-235 is typical for video sources. however, not all sources follow the rules.
If the processor DVI input level is set to 0-255 but the source is 16-235,the image will lack dynamic range.
NOTE#2:
To test what the output is from the source, put a 10 step gray scale pattern from a test pattern DVD.
Toggle between 16-235 and 0-255.
The correct setting is when all 10 bars visible and eveny lit. an incorrect setting will produce an image that either looks dull or the brightest and darkest bars are missing(clipping).

0-255 source + 16-235 Setting = Image too bright
16-235 Source + 0-255 setting = Dull image
Yves


DVI is a pain because the source can not tell the display what luma range it is using. HD-DVD players tend to use 0-255 while most other video sources tend to use 16-235. Since the source and display can not communicate this information, the user (you) must select the proper levels with the Moome board.

With HDMI this is easier as the source and display can comunicate through the "info frame." With HDMI, the source should tell the display what color space. Furthermore, with YCbCr industry standards dictate 16-235 (and with YCbCr 0-255 does not exist). So with YCbCr there is usually no need to specify luma range since there is only one.

If you continue to use DVI you must understand it's limitations Sad I would consider upgrading to a processor that supports HDMI on the output.

craigr

_________________
JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
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Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
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CIR Engineering



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany

Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:51 pm    Post subject:

Nashou66 wrote:
CIR Engineering wrote:

DVI only supports RGB at either 0-255 or 16-235. You can not make a DVI source (in almost every case) output YCbCr. Furthermore, any DVI source that supports YCbCr is outside of industry specifications. Only HDMI supports YCbCr.

To utilize YCbCr 444 or 422 you will need a source or video processor that can output YCbCr through HDMI. Many BluRay players support this as well as the Lumagen Radiance video processors.



craigr


Ad the Tv-ones to the list also, i can choose what YUV (analog or digital) it will input and output over DVI

Athanasios


You can select YCbCr on the output on the TV-One? I did not know that.

The Lumagen Vision allows selection on the input only for RGB or YCbCr 444/422 (output is fixed at RGB).

The Lumagen Radiance is native HDMI, so it auto selects. However, one can also specify on the Radiance the luma level and color space on all inputs and outputs.

craigr

_________________
JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying Wink
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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CIR Engineering



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany

Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:53 pm    Post subject:

AnalogRocks wrote:
CIR Engineering wrote:


Furthermore, Moome is adding a feature that I requested to the newer firmware. He will be shipping me a beta chip to test soon. With the new feature you will still be able to select 15-235 or 0-255 for all digital inputs, but you will also be able to force the card to YCbCr 422 or 444. This is a feature that is usually only available in a high end video processor such as those offered by Lumagen.

craigr


Hi Craig,
Will the forced switch be a hardware switch or something controled by the remote?


Remote.

Moome and I talked about this quite a bit. The card will still auto select color space. There will simply be an added feature on the remote to manually override the auto selection of color space so that one can force the card to any color space.

craigr

_________________
JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying Wink
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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rabies_70



Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Posts: 1189
Location: Carlsbad, CA

TV/Projector: Sony G70Q

Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:43 pm    Post subject:

OK I perhaps am a bit slow on the uptake. If Mr Moome is monitoring this portion of the thread, and I understand he his busy, but could I please get your input. From what I understand the board I bought, V2 full hd sony IFB 1.3 was shipped with incorrect filters? Or something? I am not at all tech savvy, and I am sure a solution is being worked on, but in the meantime should I mail my card back to you for rework or go ahead and use it?

Mr Moome what would you like me to do?

Thank you again for all your hard work on these cards they really are the lynch pin in my cinema.

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