CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum

nuttall_chris · Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:33 pm Post subject:

Mark_A_W · Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:29 pm Post subject:

Mark_A_W · Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:42 pm Post subject:

Oh, I just thought of something the PC is not real good at - Levels Expansion. Some drivers force it, the next release don't...etc.

Powerdvd uses Overlay on XP and you get expansion. Using Zoomplayer with Dscaler decoder in software running VMR9 (for TS files) you don't. But if you use Hardware Accel on an Ati card and VMR9 you do.

It's all over the place, and a PITA.

That said I see no sign of banding with HD-DVD, but it niggles me as I would prefer it to use VMR9 with no expansion.

oliverg · Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:45 am Post subject:

The PS3 will not output 1080P by component, ICT or not. It removes the option as soon as it senses the lack of HDMI/HDCP compliant transport. Same with my BR player. Sony say this is so the machines conform to HDCP standards.

Someone was discussing the issue with Pixel Magic - this is what heir support guys responded with:
"There is a major issue on your setup. Most if not all blu-ray, HDDVD player outputs a HDCP protected HDMI signal. The Crystalio II RGBHV/Component analog video output will be disabled when a HDCP protected HDMI Input is selected. Only the 2 HDMI Outputs will remain active with HDCP protection. This is the rule of HDMI/HDCP processing so it won't work in your system."

On the nvidia forums, its been brought up several times. If you don't have a HDCP compliant display, the video card wont output. I've just hooked up the component adapter on my 8800GTX and it wont output 1080P - only 1080i. Is this different with ATI/AMD cards?
I just tried VGA too, but 1080P isn't even an option that appears.

That's specifically why I got my HDFury. Hmm

Mark, saying that the points I've brought up not being relevant for 1920*1080 - that's blatantly not true. VXP/HQV were designed specifically with 1080P in mind. I've seen the improvements first hand. You haven't, its that simple.

I also find it strange how you keep shifiting the issue to one of price, when price was never the issue at all. You deny that there is any benefit at all. Now you are saying "well there might be a little benefit but not at 1920*1080 and even if there was I wouldn't pay for it because its not worth it"

Overall, your comments are quite profound for someone that hasn't even given the technology due evaluation.

VideoGrabber · Joined: 09 Apr 2006 Posts: 933 Location: Michigan

Oliver commented:
> I also find it strange how you keep shifiting the issue to one of price, when price was never the issue at all. <

Actually, that's not correct. Price is ALWAYS an issue, at least for 95% of us. And Mark was always upfront about being an "80%/20%" guy. I.e., as the prices rise, you reach a point of diminishing returns. At that point, the quality is already so good that no marginal increases could ever justify any additional expenditure (to these individuals).

That's just one point of view. There are others that feel that spending 5x as much for a 5% increase in PQ is well worth it, and they are absolutely correct... for them. BOTH are valid points of view... you just need to know where the individual is coming from. I appreciate hearing and learning from both viewpoints. But Mark's are more valuable to me, because they represent a balance and price range I find acceptable.

Your C2 ($5-6,000? USD), exceptional as I am sure it is, cost more than my (used) car, and there's no scenario short of me winning the lottery (which I never play) that the benefits of a C2 have any relevance. Perhaps some day, years down the road, when all electronics have high-quality VP chips in them, that C2 will be selling used for under a grand. I'd find it very interesting then, and would be sorely tempted, but would still think fairly hard about its justification in that context.

> You deny that there is any benefit at all. <

That's not the way I've interpreted Mark's comments from the very beginning. Only within the context of "bang for the buck".

There are "cheap" solutions that get you poor or moderate results. And there are other cheap solutions that yield excellent results... though not the very best possible. There are other costs associated with the HTPC option, which include initial setup and "hassle-factor", that Mark has been up-front about. You've made it pretty clear in your postings that you have no interest in that, which is fine, and Mark IS willing to do so, which is also fine. Each individual has to decide for themselves where they fit along the spectrum of investment: (time) -->--> ($$$), as well as where their personal curves intersect for quality/price.

To illustrate the point, let's take it up a notch. Let's say there was a VP that cost 10x as much as your C2. How much time would YOU have to spend evaluating it before deciding that perhaps the 2% improvement it might offer simply wasn't worth it to you? Then if you had Mark Cuban (a guy with much deeper pockets) chastising you that you really "needed to give it a chance", before making up your mind.

> Overall, your comments are quite profound... <

Yes, I'd agree with that assessment. Wink

oliverg · Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:41 am Post subject:

When the discussion about routing a HTPC through a VP came up - price was not even mentioned. Go back and read carefully, there is no mention of "There is no benefit of routing a HTPC through a VP because its too expensive"

His question repeated several times despite my explanation of "better PQ" is below:

Mark_A_W · Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 4:17 am Post subject:

I'll ignore all the other sh*t.

"On the nvidia forums, its been brought up several times. If you don't have a HDCP compliant display, the video card wont output. I've just hooked up the component adapter on my 8800GTX and it wont output 1080P - only 1080i. Is this different with ATI/AMD cards?
I just tried VGA too, but 1080P isn't even an option that appears. "

VGA output direct to a CRT display works fine for HD-DVD with my ATi 2600XT, and it worked with a 6800GT (with an earlier version of Powerdvd), that I had before. Whatever res you want. I haven't tried component.

VGA out from a PC is allowed. You get a nice green Tick in the Powerdvd adviser for Analogue Out.

I actually stopped using my Moome HDCP compliant Input card as it is really finicky and offers no visible improvement over my 2600XT via VGA. In fact it looks better on the 24" CRT monitor (using the 6800gt back then) as that has trouble clamping black with the Moome card in the signal chain (the XG doesn't have this problem, it has better clamping circuits).

That's one thing that the Nvidia card was better with - DVI out to the Moome card. With the ATi HDMI out to the Moome card I get a really blurry image, if I get one at all. I've got a 30cm HDMI lead to test with, but haven't had a chance. I've found HDMI to be more trouble than it's worth - for me anyway.

oliverg · Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:22 am Post subject:

Link to http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12085588#post12085588

For people that want to see for themselves how many VP owners have seen the same results I have.

Mark, the VP forum on AVS a great deal more VP owners (who were provided with the link to here) and they have commented on AVS about your claims.

As you so put it on AVS. "Bite me" - No, bite me! You want to make claims which are blatantly untrue, then be prepared to back them up with some actual evidence rather than theory. There are a lot of people there that have commented on your observations.

And these are people that actually have got a VP and tried it out with a HTPC.

WanMan · Joined: 19 Mar 2006 Posts: 10270

I am curious to know how this will function if one uses the Abit ATI-based HDMI-equipped motherboard. Did Terry say he's using this drive?

Moose · Joined: 09 Mar 2006 Posts: 788 Location: Minnesota

Accck! Deleted! Already answered!

Darren Wadsworth · Joined: 20 Mar 2006 Posts: 238 Location: Tacoma, Washington

Darren Wadsworth · Joined: 20 Mar 2006 Posts: 238 Location: Tacoma, Washington

WanMan · Joined: 19 Mar 2006 Posts: 10270

kschmit2

Spanky Ham · Joined: 22 Mar 2006 Posts: 5643 Location: Comedy Central

I am not going to get into the VP debate except for two points. One, I have seen a couple of VPs and they make a difference. How much is a matter of personal taste. I don't think I would spring for a dedicated VP, as I thought the improvement didn't justify the cost for CRT. I think VPs have a greater impact on the digital pjs. Second, I am not taking sides, but I thought it was pretty juvenile to run to AVS and start a thread Oliver. Since I have known Mark, I have never known him to make statements without some knowledge of the subject.

Now, what I really want to know is the difference between using a HTPC and a stand alone player now that they are coming down in price?

oliverg · Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:11 am Post subject:

james69 · Joined: 02 Nov 2007 Posts: 20

oliverq your wasting your time dude

people that have a vid processor know you are right

your flogging a dead horse .. dont stoop to their level.. you dont have to justify yourself anymore because its obvious to the neutral people who is full of it.. i can see why your frustrated and why you would go to avs and imho i don't think your the juvenile one... one person is a legend in his own lunchbox

after reading the threads here and on avs i went and got a vp50. the one you recommended was too expensive for me
my satellite and my pc look a lot better. not a little bit but a lot so for me it was worth it

there just arent enough guys on this forum that uave really tried out the new type processors so just give it up
this thread should have been closed as its just not getting anywhere ...... what was the original topic again?

oliverg · Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:55 am Post subject:

I agree - this thread isn't getting anywhere.

I find it amazing that some people have such strong opinions about something they don't know much about.

Joust · Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 3:38 am Post subject:

What do you mean?
Where is it supposed to go? It is about Chris N putting his new combo drive in his HTPC? talk of a video processor is an entirely different subject.
I suggest you start a thread on them. I'm interested but i think they are too expensive for my blood.

Spanky Ham · Joined: 22 Mar 2006 Posts: 5643 Location: Comedy Central

I haven't seen how Mark can upset a lot of people, but oh well. I am sure I have pissed off a lot more people than Mark.

No, I don't believe you went to AVS to gather more opinions as you already have all of the knowledge you need on VPs. I don't see how one needs to spend days and weeks with a VP to see the difference. As I have said, I have seen them and there is a difference. Is it a big difference? Well, that is a matter of opinion.

James,
I think you have a digital and I said it would make a bigger difference for digitals.

Joust,
I agree. It should be discussed in a new thread.