CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum

cmjohnson · Joined: 03 Apr 2006 Posts: 5180 Location: Buried under G90s

Isn't that PJ about 50 grand? I'd suspect a new bulb for it costs about as much as a used G90 in working condition.

For that kind of green, I'd be WAY ahead on money by just putting in a third G90 and having all three of them completely rebuilt
by a G90 expert. And I wouldn't be limited to "only" 1920x1080 max resolution.

ecrabb · Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 2:12 am Post subject:

CJ,

I don't know for sure, but I assume the lamps for that projector are about a grand. Let me know when I can buy a good, usable G90 in working condition with good tubes for a grand, mmmkay? Besides, if a guy can afford a projector and theater like this, I don't see how re-lamping it once ever year or two is a big deal.

Next, do you have any idea what kind of brightness you'd be getting out of three G90's on a FOURTEEN-FOOT WIDE SCREEN? All three G90's together won't be as bright, or as sharp as the Sim2. Yes, the stack will destroy the Sim2 on on/off, but the Sim2 will mop the floor with the stack on ANSI contrast and brightness.

I don't see how the panel resolution, and being limited to "only" 1920x1080 is a big deal anymore. Our primary sources now ARE that resolution, and any lower-resolution sources can easily be scaled to that resolution. So, who cares?

Our CRT projectors do some things really well, but putting an image on 14-foot wide scope screen isn't one of them. I've watched Art's G90 stack, I've watch Cliffy's triple-stack, and I've watched an entire movie in Art's scope theater. They're all awesome experiences, but just different.

SC

Tom.W · Joined: 09 Mar 2006 Posts: 6635

I was wondering the other day why Art never seems to post here ?

MikeEby · Joined: 24 Jun 2007 Posts: 5237 Location: Osceola, Indiana

I bought Art's old audio processor....If he holds on to the Sim long enough maybe I could afford it....Some how doubt it though. Smile

Mike

ecrabb · Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 4:50 am Post subject:

Tom, Art is a really busy small business owner, family guy, and is very active in the AVS community. To be honest, he probably doesn't have time for another forum. Plus, I think he was already thinking about scope and digital, and therefore less active in the CRT forum at AVS when Curt and Kal started this site.

Yeah, Mike - I have a feeling the Sim2 will be out of reach for us for awhile. Not to mention I don't have room big enough in my entire house for that projector and screen! Wink

SC

MikeEby · Joined: 24 Jun 2007 Posts: 5237 Location: Osceola, Indiana

paw · Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 1176 Location: Arvada, CO

ecrabb · Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:05 am Post subject:

paw · Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 1176 Location: Arvada, CO

cmjohnson · Joined: 03 Apr 2006 Posts: 5180 Location: Buried under G90s

Well, if really big is what you want, then I guess you'd HAVE to go for the huge light output capacity of a 3 chip DLP unit. But I can only guess as to the lamp costs for that particular PJ. I do know that the pair of Barco SLM R6 Performers in my garage at this very moment
are 5000 lumen machines and lamp costs on them are around 2500 dollars each for a max safe operating lifespan of 1500 hours.

Though they're 1280x1024 machines, they have built-in edge blending and profiles for everything up to 1080p and beyond. Setting them
up for a 10,000 lumen blended 1080p display would be trivially simple and the picture could be enormous. Given my particular movie
viewing preferences, which is, not that often, and only movies, I could probably run them for the next five to ten years before running
out of lamp time. If only I had the space.... but I'd hate to have to buy new lamps when the time comes. And I find that the black
level on these modern machines is acceptable.

I'm hoping that LED light sources will be developed as drop-in replacements for existing DLP projectors. I can buy 1200 lumen LED modules right now. Integrate four of them and I'm almost at the 5K level of these Barcos. These projectors would last forever,
practically.

I can see that if size with quality is Art's driving force, then yeah, it makes sense for him to go with a 3 chip DLP unit. I might do the
same thing myself, if I had that sort of budget and space. But on a smaller scale, my 9500LC completely satisfies me right now.

CJ

Tom.W · Joined: 09 Mar 2006 Posts: 6635

Maybe we can get Art to drop in for a visit and give his opinion on the latest state of the art in projection technology ?

Not that I can afford it but interesting none the less........

Wink

**AnalogRocks** · Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 8:57 am Post subject:

WanMan · Joined: 19 Mar 2006 Posts: 10270

Maybe he should invest in IMAX?

cmjohnson · Joined: 03 Apr 2006 Posts: 5180 Location: Buried under G90s

I see nothing at all wrong with DLP as a technology. It really is getting very good. But the lamps are the weakness in the system,
with limited life, huge cost, and a huge thermal penalty.

I can buy SMALL 1200 lumen white LED modules right now for a very reasonable cost, and if I bought four of them and came up with
a way to adapt them into, for example, one of my Barcos, I'd have a lifetime 4800 lumen lamp source that may be among the last
things to fail in this projector, with a huge reduction in heat output as well. The largest challenge in doing this would be reworking
or replacing the lamp power supply with one that would be suitable for the LEDs and also communicate properly with the projector.
There would be no need for a lamp strike circuit, of course.

I'm giving serious consideration to tackling that project.

CJ

Spanky Ham · Joined: 22 Mar 2006 Posts: 5643 Location: Comedy Central

CJ,
I find it interesting that you say that black level is acceptable on the Barcos. They are producing somewhere around 2k to 1 on/off. I know Dave found this acceptable and I am guessing others have as well. I know Dave said he liked the increased brightness and I have observed that 20ft/lmbs on a big screen can somewhat mitigate the poor on/off. For me and I am guessing most people here though, I would guess that something much higher would be needed to satisfy them.

As for LEDs, I would be interested in seeing your experiment. I guess it can be said now that is on their webpage - VDC has a LED dlp.. According to Scott, LEDs produce about 3k lumens, but the optics cuts that down to about 400. So, you would need a quite a few if you can combine them. Optoma has a cheap 1080p dlp for under $1k and LG has a LED dlp at 800x600. I wonder if there is a way to put the 1080p chip in the LG.

ecrabb · Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:21 pm Post subject:

Art Sonneborn · Joined: 15 Apr 2006 Posts: 4 Location: East Leroy, MI

Tom emailed me so here is an update:

My life is indeed extremely busy. About eighteen months ago I purchased another orthodontic practice which added almost four hundred new folks in one month. I'm in the process of doing it again but this time with a smaller practice. I'm part of a study group which requires quite a bit of time. My three boys are in sports which takes way more time and energy than you might think. Tyrus (my twelve year old) in particular, has been a project training him with weights as well as agility training to get him up to speed for football.He is the youngest kid on his team which at tweve means he plays against mostly thirteen and fourteen year old boys( a huge age difference ,which puts him at a bit of a disadvantage.

Here he is (number 52 nose guard) having gotten one of the offensive lineman off balance about to hit the running back.

The girls have moved away Salina to Portland,Stephanie to Phoenix.

As far as AV there are few if any upgrade paths for me with my screen size. My HT 5000 does 709 color space very accurately with panel alignment,optics and light output that are unmatched. There are some smaller projectors with better sequential contrast but everything else in my screen size range are lateral moves where I'd have to give up in one parameter(or more) to gain in another.

The Seaton speakers and Dolby Lake equalizer are getting me pretty much where I want to be with audio.

Right now I'm just enjoying my room using it to keep my sanity (using that term loosely) Very Happy

.

The lamps are available for around 700 USD so I've been changing them at 900 hours or so when the image is a little less punchy.

I hope all of you guys are well and enjoying the hobby like I do.

Art

cmjohnson · Joined: 03 Apr 2006 Posts: 5180 Location: Buried under G90s

Yes, I do find the black level on these Barcos to be acceptable, from what I've seen so far, but that's NOT in a home theater setting,
and not even with a proper screen. I can say that these are far from my first "big boy" projectors, and their black level is many
times better than any of the older first generation DLP units I had some time ago, and better than the AmPro LV machines, too.

I'd also have to take into account the fact that these Barcos should be able to throw a very big picture, bigger than I can actually show,
which by itself helps the black level. Black levels are always high when all the light output is concentrated in a small area, but even
with that, these SLM R6 machines do quite well. Black is really pretty dark.

If I could turn my garage into a home theater, and I had a lens for each of these machines, I might be tempted to actually do it,
use the entire garage door space as one big screen. And fill it!

But apparently they're not HDCP compliant on the DVI inputs. This means I can't go direct from a DVD player to the projectors. I'd
have to insert an HD Fury in the line, or something.

Barco does have HDCP compliant DVI input cards, but I don't know if they have them for this model and I suspect they're not cheap
in any event.

I choose CRT for my "small" home theater, but make no mistake about it, big digitals are a unique brand of fun. Smile

And they're
only getting better and better.

CJ

Tom.W · Joined: 09 Mar 2006 Posts: 6635

Tom.W · Joined: 09 Mar 2006 Posts: 6635

Very nice !

http://www.artsonneborn.com/

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