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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 3:16 am Post subject: |
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| Spotmatic wrote: | | Mike, the H width is at 77 with the rasters almost touching the sides of the tubes... |
Those numbers and the numbers in the "voltage diagnostics" let's me know if certain upgrades was made to your 909. I forgot to have you go to a higher rate, not sure if you were at 1920x1080P, and if that's high enough for this. Normally, the projector would be at a high rate for high band sweep operation. And that would also be at 96hz refresh.
There were several later upgrades to the 909's, that are only available if you purchase new modules. Barco seemed to have backed out of further upgrades sometime after 2003. And from there the focus went somewhere else. And most of the folk that were working on their simulator CRT projectors, left the company or got into something else. There's almost no support for the 909, though there are parts in the form of modules only, to include tubes and other associated parts. But any real technical support on board level repairs is almost non existing. And that's where I come in. I've had to learn the chassis ins and outs, and also was giving the best inside contact to help with gathering the necessary info to keep existing 909's in operation for several military facilities. So in doing so, I've been making some upgrades and have also made several really cool changes myself.
The 909's are really well built. But they are no different from any of the other CRT projectors manufactured. As time went by, the need for certain circuit changes became obvious.
For instance. I would suggest that you change out the fans. And when doing so, pay close attention to how the fans in there are attached to the chassis. There are 5 fans. 3 in the rear, and 2 in the front on the controller. All 5 should be swapped out. When replaced with a better quality fan, you'll be able to avoid damaging a few of the boards in the 909. The center fan in the rear is for the H. deflection module. It is temperature sensitive, so it'll turn on only when the H. def. module heats to a predetermined temperature. If that fan fails to operate as required, you'll have module failure.
So I would suggest that you swap the fans. I have part numbers for replacement at the shop, but the Pabst fans of the same size and voltage should do fine.
The problem with the set going into standby, could be caused from several things. And from the voltage readings, I have a suspicion what's causing it. But before we jump the gun, it's best to wait and see if it happens again. And if so, we'll need to keep our eyes on the readings. If it continues, it should be addressed. If not, don't worry about it. Worst case, it'll start happening more as time goes on. If so, there's a fix.
Also From time to time, go into the memory management menu, and check the memories that are in there. If somehow additional memories were being created - delete them.
it is very important that the 909 is properly grounded on the power line.
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Spotmatic
Joined: 29 Jun 2006
Posts: 531
Location: Gelderland, Netherlands
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:45 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the suggestions, Mike!
As of now, I have not encountered the same "shut down" problem I had when the Moome was attached. So the only thing I can assume is that the Moome was indeed (part of) the problem. I'll wait a few more days before I'll take the conclusion that the problem has been solved.
Maybe I can try 1080p96, that should be easy since it's now connected by a VGA to RGBHV cable (VGA does not max out at 1080p60 like all those DVI solutions do).
The HDfury is on its way now... 
Last edited by Spotmatic on Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:00 am; edited 1 time in total
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mrking
Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 193
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:38 am Post subject: |
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Why would you replace the fans on a machine with just 2900 hours on it?
Hell I have a bunch 808LC's here with 53k hours with the original fans and they don't seem to be breaking down yet.
_________________
"Once you go BLACK you never go BACK!.." CRT forever!!!
- ISF certified calibrator -
Selling, buying, trading, installing and calibrating CRT-projectors.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:10 am Post subject: |
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| Spotmatic wrote: |
As of now, I have not encountered the same "shut down" problem I had when the Moome was attached |
Ok, so this indicates that it was more likely the 909 seeing a new source and going into failsafe. Again, like i said earlier, If an input is put on the BNC's, and it's not in memory already, it may shut down the first time.
It's very smart. Or it's programmed.designed to be very protective. And the brains are not only on the controller. The G2 diagnostics board to include a section of the SMPS also keeps an eye on a great part of the projectors operations.
Also, based on your warm up test, that 909 is pretty stable. The very slight changes in the voltage readings are normal. Only two of the readings I'm keeping my eye on, but it's not a general concern for now, and should not be something to worry about. mainly because the G2 diagnostics board is the guy that's making sure they're not a problem at all. And though some of the readings seem to be far off, they are not.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| mrking wrote: | Why would you replace the fans on a machine with just 2900 hours on it?
Hell I have a bunch 808LC's here with 53k hours with the original fans and they don't seem to be breaking down yet. |
I've replaced fans on 909's that had 1400 hours on them.
And other than the 909's. In the 25 years of doing this, i may have replaced 5 fans on the total sum of projectors I've worked on.
I can technically explain why to replace them, but it would take up far too much writing, so I'll rather just say replace them. And I'm saying that from experience with these beast. And that experience is what's keeping a very good number of 909's in operation almost all over the globe.
The fan replacement when the projector is working is more preventative. And based on the many 909's that I've repaired and keep into operation. I would say the fans chosen for the 909 was a choice based on economics.
And because of the complexities of the fan circuits and fan fail circuits, it was not the best choice for this projector (but that's just my opinion).
But you don't have to change them out at all. Don't take my word for it. I'm just a guy that supports and repairs these 909's. And have successfully done so for the past 3 or 4 years, and it took almost all that time to solve all the problems related to the fans and protect circuits. And this was with help from Barco support.
I just know one thing from this. If I had a 909 in my theater, the fans would be replaced ASAP..
Last edited by mp20748 on Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Dave Lister
Joined: 16 Jan 2007
Posts: 436
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
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Atom
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 79
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Mike
Could you let us know which Pabst fans would be the correct replacements ?
Thanks
Andrew
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Atom wrote: | Hi Mike
Could you let us know which Pabst fans would be the correct replacements ?
Thanks
Andrew |
I'm not at the shop, so for now I'll only give the original fan numbers:
4710nl-04w-b30 - the three larger ones on the rear.
3110nl-04w-b50 - the two smaller ones on the control board assembly.
Now, this is from two other sources that also replaced the fans. It seems they've had good results with matching the specs as close as possible. One has even used a Radio Shack fans for the two that are on the controller. And things have been fine.
We were thinking the problem was more related to a particular batch of the NMB fans that are in there, because another operation had a high failure rate with their 909's. And they were the ones that suggested to me to also swap out the front fans. Because I've had all three larger fans fail in the three 909 blend that I maintain. two around the same time, and one sometime later. So I'll step away from this, and just leave it as a highly recommended upgrade. One that could prevent SMPS failure, as well the unnecessary fan failure errors. And if the H deflection module fans fails, that module will also fail. The problem with this is that the cost to replace the boards from these failures are seriously high. And that's why I've been consulted to repair the boards in these projectors.
So from now on, I'm not going to post anything else on changes or upgrades for the 909..
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Spotmatic
Joined: 29 Jun 2006
Posts: 531
Location: Gelderland, Netherlands
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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So, Mike, you are essentially saying: if I don't replace the fans, the projector will die sooner or later...
To me, that does not sound very logical, as the projector will shut itself down if one or more of the fans do not work. Or are you suggesting that the original fans do not move enough air to cool the boards?
BTW, I know of at least one Cine 9 that's currently not working, also due to a defective SMPS. And I have heard from more owners with SMPS problems. So there's certainly something up with the SMPS...
Last edited by Spotmatic on Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Heywood Jablome
Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 1548
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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Sounds to me like a suspicious lot of fans cause false shutdowns and other annoyances...
_________________
"Those countries which lag behind in industry, in the application of mechanics and technical chemistry, in the careful selection and utilization of natural products, where the respect for such activities does not permeate all classes of society, will unfailingly decline in prosperity. They will sink faster when neighbor states, with an energetic exchange between science and industry, go forward with renewed vitality."
-- Baron Alexander von Humboldt: 1769-1859
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:37 am Post subject: |
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| Spotmatic wrote: | | So, Mike, you are essentially saying: if I don't replace the fans, the projector will die sooner or later... |
No, I'm trying to recommend preventative measures, that are based on experiences with repairing many boards of the 909. And by not knowing why there's been some fan problems, I'm only suggesting to replace the fans to be on the safe side.
| Quote: | | To me, that does not sound very logical, as the projector will shut itself down if one or more of the fans do not work. Or are you suggesting that the original fans do not move enough air to cool the boards? |
You're right. There is a protect feature, and I covered that earlier. However, if a fan shorts as I've experienced, it could cause damage to the SMPS. And to be clear here, the fans can damage the fan power supply section of the SMPS if one shorts, but the fans are not the main reason for SMPS failure. And a shorted fan could be rare, or defective batch related.
| Quote: | | BTW, I know of at least one Cine 9 that's currently not working, also due to a defective SMPS. And I have heard from more owners with SMPS problems. So there's certainly something up with the SMPS... |
Though a good portion of them have failed, they are very stable, and far better in design than anything Barco has used in their other projectors.
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Mad Mr H
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 641
Location: London , England
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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Well I just dont agree with this - DONT change the fans for the sake of it.......
these fans are used in the ENTIRE Barco range.
They are VERY GOOD.
909s used in commercial applications are usually in temp controlled dust free environments.
HOUSE HOLD BRICK DUST is the largest case of fan failure.
As it happens I am running some tests on fans that run with a lower ambient noise level - currently on 1209s units.
The SMPS / PSU is one of the most frequent failures in ANY projector,
So is the item we hear most about failing.
There are a couple of other boards that each machine seems to "kick" every so often.
OF COURSE IF in ONE machine the fan voltage runs high then those fans will fail early.
These NMB and SUNON fans are used the world over, we must replace around 20 fans a week in various repairs - these are ALL DUST related failures, and early failures due to dust blocking the airway or brick dust causing additional noise and wear in the fan.
I would be happy with ANY Barco bought NOT to replace the fans, unless they are very loud or show high wear.
I very much doubt Curt replaces every Barco fan, I know I never have.
Credit to you Mike Parker if every projector you sell or service you fit new fans ???
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Mad Mr H wrote: | Well I just dont agree with this - DONT change the fans for the sake of it.......
these fans are used in the ENTIRE Barco range.
They are VERY GOOD. |
Yep, and are very good fans as you've indicated. But was they a good idea for that special fan circuit used in the 909's?
| Quote: | | 909s used in commercial applications are usually in temp controlled dust free environments |
Nope, not on this end. Most of the installs are temp controlled, and that is usually a requirement for high end rooms where sensitive (expensive) electronic equipment is installed. But I know of none that are dust controlled.
| Quote: | | HOUSE HOLD BRICK DUST is the largest case of fan failure |
Maybe dust has been the reason for the flag going up with these fans, but for sure No commercial grade fan should fail under normal dust exposure.
| Quote: | | As it happens I am running some tests on fans that run with a lower ambient noise level - currently on 1209s units |
I would not expect the fans to be a problem in the 1209's. The problem with these fans has to do with the sensitive fan circuit that they're used with. A fan that will cause a fail safe because the speed has changed, would probably need to be a special fan. And maybe it was a good idea to use the standard fans in these 909's... but I'm thinking it should have been giving more attention, because the original idea to change out the fans, did not come from me. I too thought it was ridiculous, but between the headaches that myself and others who also maintain part of their own 909 service (I only repair the boards they don't do themselves) the fans should be replaced.
| Quote: | The SMPS / PSU is one of the most frequent failures in ANY projector, So is the item we hear most about failing.
There are a couple of other boards that each machine seems to "kick" every so often. |
True, the SMPS is a common failing item on most CRT projectors. And like I've said earlier, I'm not going to say anything else on this projector.
| Quote: | | OF COURSE IF in ONE machine the fan voltage runs high then those fans will fail early |
As I've indicated before, the fan circuits in the 909 are very complex.
| Quote: | | These NMB and SUNON fans are used the world over, we must replace around 20 fans a week in various repairs - these are ALL DUST related failures, and early failures due to dust blocking the airway or brick dust causing additional noise and wear in the fan |
As a technical consultant for several large commercial operations. I not only repair their boards, I also troubleshoot difficult system problems for them. And in the 25 years of doing this work, if ever there was a fan to fail or stop working because of a REASONABLE amount of dust. It would not be fit for commercial applications. Because one of th requirements is that it has to work under reasonable dust accumulation. Just think, who would want to hear that their 2 million dollar system failed because a fan failed under normal dust use. However, it is perfectly alright for a fan to fail, but it's not alright for a fan to fail from normal dust. Though since you bring up dust, the problem with the 909 fans may be related to dust slowing them down. Which may not have been considered during the design of the 909.
| Quote: | | I would be happy with ANY Barco bought NOT to replace the fans, unless they are very loud or show high wear |
There's a lot of mystery with the fans on the 909's. And let me just be clear here. Everything I've said about the fans being a problem came either from my experience, or from others who maintain over 30 of them in a military situation, and it was also suggested by someone else, who I'm not supposed to mention.
Also, I share in the responsibility of keeping a very large amount of 909's in operation. Therefore, there's a lot I know about them. And there's a lot I have to learn as well. And the thing I'm not liking about working on the 909's is, I'm the only one repairing the boards out of the many who's dealing with the on site support. That may sound good, but that's a lot of pressure. So it's also my responsibility to keep on top of the problems that they'll have as well as come up with solutions for the problems that already exist. And trust me, the 909 is highly advanced with features as it goes with CRT technology, and with that, a lot is required to keep them up.
| Quote: | | I very much doubt Curt replaces every Barco fan, I know I never have. |
There are things that I'll send to Curt for repair, and there are things that Curt sends to me. And the last Barco boards that left here repaired were sent to one of Curt's customers. And to answer your next question. One of the boards was a full controller assembly. Several things were done to the boards, but the fans were not changed in the controller. the reason i don't change out the fans, is because in the commercial applications, it can only be done under "maintenance". And other than that, it would have to be a repair that's directly related to the fans. And since no one really knows which fans would be the best for this, mainly because of that complex fan circuit, no one really wants to just swap out the fans with something that we're really not that sure would be the best for these 909's.
So far i've been using two different fans for replacement. One is a different model NMB. And it's one that does not have the same mounting tabs, so we've used wire tires. It's an NMB fan that has a green label. The other is a Pabst. but I don't have much info on that one, but have used the NMB's far more. And it's the same ones that others use. Now, I'm told the smaller ones in the controller are no longer available.
So the fans we've been using, we're really not 100% about. And that's because of that complex fan circuit. And that's why I'm also working on and with others to get to a better place on this problem.
Credit to you Mike Parker if every projector you sell or service you fit new fans ???[/quote]
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Mad Mr H
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 641
Location: London , England
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| Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:19 am Post subject: |
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Well you may not realise that rooms are dust controlled............
The air con systems are filtered.
Floors are NOT usually carpet.
Double door entry systems used to maintain heat and reduce dust into room.
Walls are sealed, basic seal is painting, best is cladding.
Daily cleaning.
Even down to uniforms worn.
These are usually items that people dont really think about but are part of a dust controlled system.
I would be fairly sure that the environments these are installed in were part of Barco design and as such air in room change per hour, dust, temp, humidity are all part of the design brief - And thats the level at which we work from in our installations. Service is the final stage of a project - Concept, design, sales, installation , product service and maintenance.
New lens optics are air tight to reduce dust ingress, less caps supplied.
Part of any maintanance programme is optic and airway cleaning - this is often overlooked to reduce costs but in the long run is the cause of escalated costs to the maintenance company, and in turn causes bad customer support and reliability issues.
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Spotmatic
Joined: 29 Jun 2006
Posts: 531
Location: Gelderland, Netherlands
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for all the info, Andy and Mike!
Now that I have blown up the Moome, I have ordered the HDfury. It only took no more than three days to get from Taiwan to The Netherlands (actual shipping was two days). Perfect, fast service!
Now I cannot wait to try the HDfury, although I know that the difference with the Moome will probably not be that big. But I'm now using the analog output of my HTPC and that leaves a LOT to be desired!
Will post my findings in a few hours...
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Spotmatic
Joined: 29 Jun 2006
Posts: 531
Location: Gelderland, Netherlands
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:31 am Post subject: |
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Since my last post, I have added the following to my setup:
- The HDfury
- A Sony PS3
The HDfury works flawlessly, no problems whatsoever. 1080p from my HTPC works like a charm. I'm very happy with it!
Yesterday, I have also added a PS3 to my setup; I had hoped to use it to replace my HTPC (I *hate* HTPC's!!!). A very nice system, with nice controls and also a nice feel to the user interface. I did not expect it, but I like it even more than the Xbox 360. However, I have a problem. I could not for the life of me get 1080p to work. I've tried everything like manually disabling 24fps, but to no avail.
From my experience the 909 is VERY picky when it comes to the 1080p signal. My former 1209s was much better in that regard, as that chassis has the ability to force the projector to enter high scanning mode when the signal gets above 66.6 KHz. Sadly, the 909 does not have the same ability. At least not the same: with the 909, you can only force it to enter high scanning mode when the signal is between 90 and 130 KHz (this can be modified from the internal Barco menus).
So my question is this: does anyone know how I can get 1080p to work WITHOUT the use of an external scaler?
BTW, I must admit 1080i from the PS3 through the HDfury looks awesome. But I hate those dreaded scanlines that are all too visible from viewing distance...
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kschmit2
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 1141
Location: Heidelberg, Germany
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:22 am Post subject: |
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spotmatic:
imho it would really be worth it to get a scaler, as that will allow you to run in multiples of 23.976 Hz.
This would mean an all new HT experience.
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Spotmatic
Joined: 29 Jun 2006
Posts: 531
Location: Gelderland, Netherlands
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:58 am Post subject: |
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| kschmit2 wrote: | spotmatic:
imho it would really be worth it to get a scaler, as that will allow you to run in multiples of 23.976 Hz.
This would mean an all new HT experience. |
I know, I know. The purchase of a scaler is inevitable. But thanks tio the 909 and the PS3, my funds have dried up. Unless... There's a $1000-$1500 scaler that does what I want (accepting 1080p/24, performing frame doubling or frame tripling, and with the ability to tweak the porches as I like...). A Lumagen HDP/HDQ?
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:17 am Post subject: |
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| Spotmatic wrote: |
The HDfury works flawlessly, no problems whatsoever. 1080p from my HTPC works like a charm. I'm very happy with it!
Yesterday, I have also added a PS3 to my setup;
From my experience the 909 is VERY picky when it comes to the 1080p signal. |
The Fury is also very finicky. Put a 5volt power supply on it, and your problem with 1080P and the PS3 should go away.
Mark Haflich had a very similar problem. It went away once he switched to the Fury I had hard wired the power supply to.
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Spotmatic
Joined: 29 Jun 2006
Posts: 531
Location: Gelderland, Netherlands
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:39 am Post subject: |
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That's a good tip Mike! I will try it. In fact, I have played a little more with the PS3 today (without power adapter for the HDfury). I tested 1080p again, and lo and behold: I had a good 1080p picture! But once I selected it, the picture went wobbly and disappeared again; I could not get the 1080p picture back: the display stays blank. Just the same behaviour as with the Xbox 360 @ 1080p on my 1209s before they fixed the 1080p timings...
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