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pureaudio
Joined: 29 Mar 2015
Posts: 37
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| Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| ElTopo wrote: | My 9 inch CRT with new tubes on a 3,32m screen in width 
4K UHD is coming from an OPPO 203 into the CRT. |
How much light do you have on that screen? gain?
with a 1.3 gain you should max out around 8fl, so wonder why you would run 4K movies on a setup like that.
A neutral gain screen in that size with a Good proper calibrated JVC N5 would be a very nice upgrade, the N series have a very nice analog look to it.
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ElTopo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1640
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| Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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Gain 1.3
The light output maybe around 8-9fL but that’s fine in my batcave.
4K because most of the time better colors, sharpness, Dolby Atmos vs the BluRay.
As mentioned I’ve seen the N5 and that was far far away from an acceptable contrast ratio vs the CRT.
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Barco Cine 9 the one and only
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| ElTopo wrote: | | Just iPhone Shots without any additional processing. |
I find it funny when people say "no additional processing" as the image has had a TON of processing applied already. 
FWIW all cameras (and cameras on phones) do a TON of processing to create that JPG. JPG is a "developed" image. The camera (or phone) does things like white balance, color correction, applies sharpening (yes - all cameras do this), noise reduction, anti-aliasing, exposure / brightness / contrast based on what it thinks sees (it tries to guess intelligently at these ones), and so forth. There's an entire image processing engine that guesses at a lot of things:
There is no such thing as a JPG that doesn't already have a ton of processing applied against it. It's had the snot processed out of it as JPG is highly processed and is the "developed" image.
The only way to not do this is to shoot in your camera's RAW mode and then use other equipment to correctly set exposure, and colour and then externally use software to do things like white balance, gamma, sharpness, contrast, exposure, and so forth the way you want to. It won't always be exactly as you saw it either because quite often that's the point: You correct for things.
I used to do this myself but it was long and tedious. I'd have to shoot with grey cards, light meters, and then take all the RAW images and put them in software like Phase One Capture One pro on a correctly calibrated monitor and "develop" them photos correctly. Still, something like black levels are completely up to you the photographer to choose as the see fit.
Then there's the whole issue with camera stops (i.e. contrast range), and can your camera actually capture the same number of stops as the projector can produce, let alone the monitor you're using to develop the photos. Never mind what the person on the other end is using!
Of course, have fun taking screenshots, but remember that they're only for fun. They're absolutely meaningless and can't be used for comparisons of things like black level, exposure, brightness, contrast, colours, etc because everything you're seeing is highly processed and the monitor someone's watching on is most likely not set exactly as you'd want based on your image workflow.
Kal
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Last edited by kal on Sat Aug 29, 2020 11:10 pm; edited 3 times in total
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General BB
Joined: 29 Feb 2016
Posts: 18
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| Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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@ElTopo
I'm not here to tell you to go digital as I understand you love your Cine9. It's not my decision to make.
I just say that you need to see it in your own cinema, not in any other setting you don't have control over.
The contrast on the N5 is quite good, more than enough, and you will have a new world in your cinema better than any laser projector that ever will be made.
But you need to take the time to watch it and ***not*** judge after 2 minutes. Because it doesn't shut down to black.
Look at everything else and this takes many hours of watching.
But needs to be calibrated to a level you like in light punch and your room and screen.
I am sure you will enjoy it very much. To say otherwise is just silly compared to what you have now.
More colors in 4K? I guess you downscale to BT709?
Last edited by General BB on Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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pureaudio
Joined: 29 Mar 2015
Posts: 37
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| Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| ElTopo wrote: | Gain 1.3
The light output maybe around 8-9fL but that’s fine in my batcave.
4K because most of the time better colors, sharpness, Dolby Atmos vs the BluRay.
As mentioned I’ve seen the N5 and that was far far away from an acceptable contrast ratio vs the CRT. |
4K mastering might have boosted colors, but there is no way it can add sharpness to CRT, you should get much better image with Blu Ray content with 8fl on a CRT, specially using the OPPO 203, the tone mapping is fairly bad.
A good N5 sample might get around 40000-50000:1 contrast, and around double ansi contrast, which is enough to convince most hardcore CRT fanatics, i have seen JVC N series demo where it looked quite horrible, so do yourself the favor look at other JVC setups.
On off contrast is just 1 parameter, and when as high as a good JVC sample you need very dark scenes, and a unique CRT setup to challenge it, i seen a CRT that had perfect 2.4 gamma out of black with around 500000:1 on off contrast, and able to measure 1% IRE on screen, it do some dark Harry Potter movie scenes to perfection, and with 72hz had better motion, everything else was better on a JVC N7. You get a hole different dept in the JVC image, something the CRT looses with its quite low ansi contrast in most movie content. 4K UHD movies is really not something i like for Projectors. Then you just as well add some Darbee, and tweak your gamma and color to your subjective liking with Blu Ray.
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ElTopo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1640
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ElTopo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
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General BB
Joined: 29 Feb 2016
Posts: 18
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| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:13 am Post subject: |
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@ElTopo
I think that the interest in watching your photos belong somewhere else. Maybe a photo thread.
Kal explained this to you well.
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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pureaudio
Joined: 29 Mar 2015
Posts: 37
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| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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As you mention kal, its hard to see much from a screenshot, what i see in Eltopos shots is a lot of processing, and we all know that no CRT can properly resolve 1080P 8bit, so that parameter is likely related to lack of information on the screen. The JVC N series is resolving 1080P 8 bit very well, UHD 10 bit is some behind, but no worse than most other 4K UHD projectors.
Personally i think the JVC N series is the one that finally gave the analog look to Digital projection, that has been missing in the previous series, no doubt that a JVC X3/ RS40 is better than all the 8" AC CRT projectors, no mater how you twist and turn it around, unless you have a serious fetish for soft and washed out image. Some good 9" LC setups kept a edge overall up to the JVC 4K models arrived, up to max 100" screen. Most of all the 9" CRT setups i have seen looked quite bad, doubt there is many who really have the know how and skills to get the most of it. Just see the very limited interest in proper calibration from people involved in CRT modifications, subjective evaluation seems to be what has driven CRT development in all direction for the last 20 years.
Last edited by pureaudio on Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:58 am; edited 1 time in total
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HaydnG90
Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 1356
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 1:22 am Post subject: |
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My pro calibration and setup cost $375 and took the guy over 10 hours. Done twice now since the G90 was installed 15 years ago. Best $375 I ever spent.
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 1:30 am Post subject: |
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No question that it makes a difference, but not to everyone. I've experienced the opposite, back around 2001, I sold a guy an XGLC projector, state of the art at the time. I think the guy was in the LA area somewhere. He gets out an ISF calibrator, spends $600, and it looks awful. He send a pix of the crosshatch, it was way out of alignment.
He hires a second guy, another $600, it looks no different than the first guy. Needless to say, the client is upset. I tell him that I'll take the projector back, but to get in Chuck Williams, who lived in the area at the time, and was also well known in the CRT world.
Client calls back 2 weeks later, says the pix is beyond expectations, and was taking the first to ISF guys to small claims court.
At $375, you got one heck of a deal.
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ElTopo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1640
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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Even if (what i don't think) a 9 inch CRT is not able to "resolve" 1080p with 8 bit correctly the picture looks absolutely amazing especially with 4K UHD coming 1080p from an Oppo.
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Barco Cine 9 the one and only
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General BB
Joined: 29 Feb 2016
Posts: 18
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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| HaydnG90 wrote: | | My pro calibration and setup cost $375 and took the guy over 10 hours. Done twice now since the G90 was installed 15 years ago. Best $375 I ever spent. |
10 hours? 10 hours why so long time?
With that long time, you have probably more error average than before calibrating. CRT or digital projector?
Jobs in grading studios or mastering studios or small cinemas can easily be $1000-$1500 plus transport.
Normal home calibration about $500-600 plus transport estimated time around 2 hours.
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HaydnG90
Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 1356
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| General BB wrote: | | HaydnG90 wrote: | | My pro calibration and setup cost $375 and took the guy over 10 hours. Done twice now since the G90 was installed 15 years ago. Best $375 I ever spent. |
10 hours? 10 hours why so long time?
With that long time, you have probably more error average than before calibrating. CRT or digital projector?
Jobs in grading studios or mastering studios or small cinemas can easily be $1000-$1500 plus transport.
Normal home calibration about $500-600 plus transport estimated time around 2 hours. |
He was a perfectionist and created two calibration files for 1080/72Hz and 1080/60Hz. There's more to proper set up of a CRT vs digital.
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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pureaudio
Joined: 29 Mar 2015
Posts: 37
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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| ElTopo wrote: | | Even if (what i don't think) a 9 inch CRT is not able to "resolve" 1080p with 8 bit correctly the picture looks absolutely amazing especially with 4K UHD coming 1080p from an Oppo. |
The fast test would be to put on your copy of DVE and display the Pixel Phase test pattern, then shoot a screenshot of the 1:1 pattern there you will see both bandwidth, tube and lens related issues resolving it. To determine the 8 bit resolution you can try measure a 8 bit gray scale, what tolerances do you think it takes to call it resolved?
I dont dispute that you prefer your CRT image over everything else, just find it sad when die hard CRT fans dont know the basic limitations of the CRT. The same can be said about digital, you need a open mind, some willingness to understand the strength and limitations to get the best compromise no matter what type of projector you have.
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General BB
Joined: 29 Feb 2016
Posts: 18
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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| HaydnG90 wrote: | | General BB wrote: | | HaydnG90 wrote: | | My pro calibration and setup cost $375 and took the guy over 10 hours. Done twice now since the G90 was installed 15 years ago. Best $375 I ever spent. |
10 hours? 10 hours why so long time?
With that long time, you have probably more error average than before calibrating. CRT or digital projector?
Jobs in grading studios or mastering studios or small cinemas can easily be $1000-$1500 plus transport.
Normal home calibration about $500-600 plus transport estimated time around 2 hours. |
He was a perfectionist and created two calibration files for 1080/72Hz and 1080/60Hz. There's more to proper set up of a CRT vs digital. |
Make sense, If a CRT can take time. Also two settings ok But a long time. Maye some you know also.
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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Actually, a good CRT setup/calibration can easily take upwards of 24 hours, or so I've been told by a couple of calibrators. 12 hours alone on focus, then 12 for convergence and color balance.
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ElTopo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1640
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Curt, your twin 909-er are still up and running i hope ?
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