CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum

[Curt Palme]

I guess I never saw a lot of high end Runcos back in the day, my customers were looking for used CRT projectors at the time, and the Runcos were way out of the price range for both me and my clients.

I know they had a lot of issues with the lower end sets. Yes, Runco rewrote software as told to me by a Runco dealer, but had all sorts of issues depending on the model. Maybe their top of the line stuff was different?

I know they did the same with the NEC CRT projectors, I had one calibrator tell me that the Runco versions had a far better image than the plain NECs, but I saw lots of both, and never saw any difference.

The running joke back in the day was that 'Runco painted the case black and added $10K.

I also wonder if the calibrator didn't get a ton of work from Runco, and therefore it was in his best interest to promote them. I have no idea though, that was 15 years ago.

[Curt Palme]

I guess I never saw a lot of high end Runcos back in the day, my customers were looking for used CRT projectors at the time, and the Runcos were way out of the price range for both me and my clients.

I know they had a lot of issues with the lower end sets. Yes, Runco rewrote software as told to me by a Runco dealer, but had all sorts of issues depending on the model. Maybe their top of the line stuff was different?

I know they did the same with the NEC CRT projectors, I had one calibrator tell me that the Runco versions had a far better image than the plain NECs, but I saw lots of both, and never saw any difference.

The running joke back in the day was that 'Runco painted the case black and added $10K.

I also wonder if the calibrator didn't get a ton of work from Runco, and therefore it was in his best interest to promote them. I have no idea though, that was 15 years ago.

[kal]

No idea what Runco did in the digital projector realm but with CRT they did not change much. See the compilation I put together here: http://www.curtpalme.com/Runco_Model_CrossRef.shtm

Kal

[kal]

No idea what Runco did in the digital projector realm but with CRT they did not change much. See the compilation I put together here: http://www.curtpalme.com/Runco_Model_CrossRef.shtm

Kal

[HaydnG90]

Basically a case repaint, name badge and a zero on the price tag. Great business model.

[kal]

Not to take the other side here but Runco did offer a completely different and (I’m assuming) upscale support model including pro installation. They were only sold through pro dealers who (were supposed to) be trained in correct install. That of course is meaningless if buying used.

Kal

[kal]

Not to take the other side here but Runco did offer a completely different and (I’m assuming) upscale support model including pro installation. They were only sold through pro dealers who (were supposed to) be trained in correct install. That of course is meaningless if buying used.

Kal

[AnalogRocks]

[AnalogRocks]

[ronaldus]

[garyfritz]

I've had a 1986 900T turbo, another 900T, a 900S, and an '88 9000. All bought used -- the first one was the newest, only 2 yrs old when I bought it.

Then in 2002 I bought a new 9-5 Aero. Still driving it, 186k miles = 300k km later. It's been a great car!

[nin]

[digitalayon]

I just want to add my two cents here and bump this up. CRT for me was fun...I enjoyed playing with it from zone astig to changing the tubes and guns. The fun was seeing how good of an image I could get to being as close to a real theater experience as possible. Hobbies do take time. And as our young family grew from 2 small children to 4 and now have two teens, that time is needed from the hobbies. Otherwise I would still have my VV1 hung with the new bellows installed. And just like other places I learned there are buttholes here in this hobby as well....Cough cough Eiserman!! But you learn to tune them out. People probably tuned me out. I look at some of the past convos I was in on here and can't believe I said such stupid crap back in the day. But it is what it is and we are just humans and we evolve in our activities and the hobbies with them. MY VV1 was leaps and bounds better than the other projectors I had. But just because it was on Curts higher end ranking list didn't mean squat because I got to play more with the Runco 933 and the Barco 1208s/2. Those are the real memories for me. I loved every minute of it as it wasn't about the unit but the fun in making the unit work. I didn't care that a Runco 933 halo'd or that is was only a 7 set and was not a 1080p PJ. What am I using now? A JVC! Do I like it as much? NO! The fun part of playing with it is gone. Does out outperform the CRT's? Absolutely! But it's sorta stale.

[AnalogRocks]

[AnalogRocks]

[Zebra]

I'm disinterested in electronics right now because of the complete lack of progress and innovation.

They keep trying to sell us the same thing over and over while pretending they've invented something new.

"it's a Qled tv"... Uh no it's just an LCD... "it's a laser tv" um... Isn't that just a DLP projector with a short throw lens... "it has a contrast ratio of infinity:1" um... am I supposed to pretend I don't know that you're just turning off the light source when measuring black levels?...

"it's 4k so it has 4 times the detail of 1080p". UM nonsense. "Sony made an Oled quality 130" laser TV". Um... No they didn't. It's just another projector with all the same limitations.

"the Iphone 27 is coming out". Um... Nobody cares anymore... It's the same as the one before and the one before that. Boring boring boring..

While failing to add any features I want, they keep adding ones that I don't. Even my TV is nagging me for constant software updates and trying to spy on me these days.

I'm like "Arghhhhh stop asking me if you can record my viewing habits! No means no". You made a TV. I bought it. I don't want any further contact. And stop trying to pretend all this data collecting is for my benefit already....

I thought we'd have affordable 150" OLED TVs that roll down like projector screens already. But... No.... Nothing has changed in ten years+.

[kal]

Trickle progress for sure. Hence the reason I'm still ecstatic with my JVC RS56 from 2013. There's been some advancements since then, but nothing that would make me want to go out and spend $5-10K on a new projector.

That 7 year old projector's about the newest thing in my HT too. Hell, my DolbyDigital/DTS preamp-processor and amps are from the mid to late 90s (Mondial Designs Acurus ACT-3 and matching amps) and I'm perfectly happy with them even though there's "better" out now (especially on the pre-pro side). It's all built like a tank and just works. If/when the pre-amp dies and I can't fix it, I'll go with something newer, probably an Anthem AVM70 if I had to do it today... and probably throw 4 speakers on the ceiling with an extra multi-channel amp so that I can do Atmos. But then when I consider that it'll be 5 figures to get everything that's around the same quality of my other speakers/amps/etc I keep saying "not worth it" as I'm perfectly happy with what I have. Definitely into the 80/20 rule here.

Kal

Kal

[kal]

Trickle progress for sure. Hence the reason I'm still ecstatic with my JVC RS56 from 2013. There's been some advancements since then, but nothing that would make me want to go out and spend $5-10K on a new projector.

That 7 year old projector's about the newest thing in my HT too. Hell, my DolbyDigital/DTS preamp-processor and amps are from the mid to late 90s (Mondial Designs Acurus ACT-3 and matching amps) and I'm perfectly happy with them even though there's "better" out now (especially on the pre-pro side). It's all built like a tank and just works. If/when the pre-amp dies and I can't fix it, I'll go with something newer, probably an Anthem AVM70 if I had to do it today... and probably throw 4 speakers on the ceiling with an extra multi-channel amp so that I can do Atmos. But then when I consider that it'll be 5 figures to get everything that's around the same quality of my other speakers/amps/etc I keep saying "not worth it" as I'm perfectly happy with what I have. Definitely into the 80/20 rule here.

Kal

Kal

[AnalogRocks]

Yeah. If I could go back electronically speaking to the innovation computers and display technology had from 1980-2005 again I would.

Funny though, watching flat screen TV's come out and the resolution wars begin. First were ED for Erectile Disolution Extended Definition, 800x480 for $3000. I remember my Dad saying what a deal he got on an Insignia 42" ED at just $1699 about a dozen or so years ago.

Remember the Costco fiasco? They had a no questions asked return policy on the electronics so people started looking at the numbers. The TV's went from 800x480 to 1024x768. Return and upgrade! 768 to 1280x720p? Upgrade! FULL1080PHDABCDEFG Upgrade!

The funny part about allot of these upgrades at the time is people were just connecting regular analog cable to them. 480i with extra fuzzies.

Costco got wise to this and changed their policy.

Then there was the devaluation of the TVs. The first 42" Fujitsu plasma I saw in 1998 was $48 000. Then along comes Samsung to devalue Tvs so completely that by the time they were done undercutting the other guys a 42" TV was less than $300. Then RCA came along and sold one for $279.
So you say; economies of scale. Yes, absolutely. Those Saturday morning cartoons that taught us about economies of scale and production were right! Werent they Billy?
Samsung however cut of their nose to spite their face. Building cheaper, sell more units, build it cheaper, sell more units until the high prices were gone and all that was left was junk sets with capacitors designed to last 90 Days and 1 week. Just long enough to makes it out of the warranty period.

We've had guys here open up Samsungs and see a set of capacitors all ready marked as the ones that need replacing from the factory. ( Jask? ) I passed on a curb find 60" RCA 4K because they are junk and there was a sweet 20" 1988 SONY CRT right beside it.

Now it's soo boring. OK pretty 4K TVs with external RGB lighting. Yeah OK we use to do that 30 years ago. We called it the reflection from the TV. I miss the CGA, EGA, VGA progression. I miss the pinnacle direct view XBR-960 sets or the Piano finished $8000 Pioneer RPTVs. Hell even the $50 000 Pioneer plasmas.

I feel we missed out by never seeing SED TVs come to market. We could of had flat panels that looked like CRT's. RCA when they still did R&D, were trying to make a flat panel CRT that was only 8-10 inches thick! I miss those days.
Now if you need a TV a quick trip to Canadian Tire gets you an Elcheapo RCA or a slightly better Sharp TV on the cheap. But it's all boring now. Same same same. No innovation, no curved screen to Toshibas FST, Blackstripe, no 20" Proton Monitors with optional TV tuner,no Lowe 38" TV's with VGA inputs for 800x600 goodness, no SONY WEGA's. Just nothing special. OLED was a nice step up. The black levels age back but, besides adding resolution, 1080p. 4K 8K they really don't seem to change much and that's a shame.

[AnalogRocks]

Yeah. If I could go back electronically speaking to the innovation computers and display technology had from 1980-2005 again I would.

Funny though, watching flat screen TV's come out and the resolution wars begin. First were ED for Erectile Disolution Extended Definition, 800x480 for $3000. I remember my Dad saying what a deal he got on an Insignia 42" ED at just $1699 about a dozen or so years ago.

Remember the Costco fiasco? They had a no questions asked return policy on the electronics so people started looking at the numbers. The TV's went from 800x480 to 1024x768. Return and upgrade! 768 to 1280x720p? Upgrade! FULL1080PHDABCDEFG Upgrade!

The funny part about allot of these upgrades at the time is people were just connecting regular analog cable to them. 480i with extra fuzzies.

Costco got wise to this and changed their policy.

Then there was the devaluation of the TVs. The first 42" Fujitsu plasma I saw in 1998 was $48 000. Then along comes Samsung to devalue Tvs so completely that by the time they were done undercutting the other guys a 42" TV was less than $300. Then RCA came along and sold one for $279.
So you say; economies of scale. Yes, absolutely. Those Saturday morning cartoons that taught us about economies of scale and production were right! Werent they Billy?
Samsung however cut of their nose to spite their face. Building cheaper, sell more units, build it cheaper, sell more units until the high prices were gone and all that was left was junk sets with capacitors designed to last 90 Days and 1 week. Just long enough to makes it out of the warranty period.

We've had guys here open up Samsungs and see a set of capacitors all ready marked as the ones that need replacing from the factory. ( Jask? ) I passed on a curb find 60" RCA 4K because they are junk and there was a sweet 20" 1988 SONY CRT right beside it.

Now it's soo boring. OK pretty 4K TVs with external RGB lighting. Yeah OK we use to do that 30 years ago. We called it the reflection from the TV. I miss the CGA, EGA, VGA progression. I miss the pinnacle direct view XBR-960 sets or the Piano finished $8000 Pioneer RPTVs. Hell even the $50 000 Pioneer plasmas.

I feel we missed out by never seeing SED TVs come to market. We could of had flat panels that looked like CRT's. RCA when they still did R&D, were trying to make a flat panel CRT that was only 8-10 inches thick! I miss those days.
Now if you need a TV a quick trip to Canadian Tire gets you an Elcheapo RCA or a slightly better Sharp TV on the cheap. But it's all boring now. Same same same. No innovation, no curved screen to Toshibas FST, Blackstripe, no 20" Proton Monitors with optional TV tuner,no Lowe 38" TV's with VGA inputs for 800x600 goodness, no SONY WEGA's. Just nothing special. OLED was a nice step up. The black levels age back but, besides adding resolution, 1080p. 4K 8K they really don't seem to change much and that's a shame.

[kal]

[kal]

[Curt Palme]

No one still has explained to me why it's a dash to the bottom with regards to price when it comes to electronics. Anything else, cars, houses.. you generally get what you pay for.

Why isn't a 480p TV $500, a 720p $800, a 1080p $1200, and a 4K $2400? While I pulled those numbers out of my ASCII, it is an example of price point. Those that can't afford a 4K TV wouldn't be able to get one.

Build them to last like we used to, and that would also keep repair shops in business once they did fail, because the suppliers could supply parts or at least boards, and everyone makes money.

[Curt Palme]

No one still has explained to me why it's a dash to the bottom with regards to price when it comes to electronics. Anything else, cars, houses.. you generally get what you pay for.

Why isn't a 480p TV $500, a 720p $800, a 1080p $1200, and a 4K $2400? While I pulled those numbers out of my ASCII, it is an example of price point. Those that can't afford a 4K TV wouldn't be able to get one.

Build them to last like we used to, and that would also keep repair shops in business once they did fail, because the suppliers could supply parts or at least boards, and everyone makes money.

[AnalogRocks]

[AnalogRocks]

[gjaky]

[kal]

And people generally speaking do not understand technology, and manufacturers know it, so they push things with bigger "numbers". Aka: 4K is "better" than 1080p. Who cares if it's a 40" TV that you're sitting 20 feet away from? People just want whatever they think is "better" and numbers are easy to compare, as meaningless as they sometimes are. Manufacturers are aiding and abetting in the dumbing down of the consumer and "price is everything" stores like Walmart and others are to blame. A toaster is a toaster, a TV is a TV. They want us to believe that other than a spec number or two they're all the same so lowest price wins. Longevity be damned. They've changed the mindset of the consumer to accept that things do not last more than a year or two so they're built that way. When it breaks, people have adopted the mindset "well it was pretty old and much newer ones are available now so it's probably for the best".

As well, while there are caveats, once you have pay for the research and machining the cost difference between making a 1080p panel and a 4K panel of the same size just isn't there really, so all things being equal you can't charge (say) x2 as much for an increase in resolution once the format becomes popular. If you're an early adopter, yes, the pricing will always be more expensive for the "next" thing as manufacturers try and recoup their R&D and tooling expenses, but that levels out pretty quickly. Then the pricing falls out of the bottom for the lower end models. Manufacturers know there's no market for lower end stuff so they don't make them. I don't think there are any 480p TV even available anymore, and other than some pretty tiny units (by today's standards) I don't think there are many 720p options are available either.

Kal

[kal]

And people generally speaking do not understand technology, and manufacturers know it, so they push things with bigger "numbers". Aka: 4K is "better" than 1080p. Who cares if it's a 40" TV that you're sitting 20 feet away from? People just want whatever they think is "better" and numbers are easy to compare, as meaningless as they sometimes are. Manufacturers are aiding and abetting in the dumbing down of the consumer and "price is everything" stores like Walmart and others are to blame. A toaster is a toaster, a TV is a TV. They want us to believe that other than a spec number or two they're all the same so lowest price wins. Longevity be damned. They've changed the mindset of the consumer to accept that things do not last more than a year or two so they're built that way. When it breaks, people have adopted the mindset "well it was pretty old and much newer ones are available now so it's probably for the best".

As well, while there are caveats, once you have pay for the research and machining the cost difference between making a 1080p panel and a 4K panel of the same size just isn't there really, so all things being equal you can't charge (say) x2 as much for an increase in resolution once the format becomes popular. If you're an early adopter, yes, the pricing will always be more expensive for the "next" thing as manufacturers try and recoup their R&D and tooling expenses, but that levels out pretty quickly. Then the pricing falls out of the bottom for the lower end models. Manufacturers know there's no market for lower end stuff so they don't make them. I don't think there are any 480p TV even available anymore, and other than some pretty tiny units (by today's standards) I don't think there are many 720p options are available either.

Kal

[kal]

[kal]

[AnalogRocks]

I have a 14" HDTV 'monitor' that retailed for $1200 in 2003 LOL it's just a 16:9 1024x768 panel with component input.

[AnalogRocks]

I have a 14" HDTV 'monitor' that retailed for $1200 in 2003 LOL it's just a 16:9 1024x768 panel with component input.