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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
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Location: West Seneca NY
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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| the dude wrote: | | I think so. Looks like a series of patterns, so you can see degeneration in performance at one glance. |
Ah you are right 3 pixel pattern black 2 pixel pattern black etc.
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
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Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | No , that pic is the Grey scale bars I believe .
nashou |
Ok so it says nothing about bandwidth but about linearity?
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| redfox001 wrote: | | Nashou66 wrote: | No , that pic is the Grey scale bars I believe .
nashou |
Ok so it says nothing about bandwidth but about linearity? |
Actually it does, according to Crag R. Every pattern or image is affected by bandwidth, obviously. So in that picture comparison you can see the difference that bandwidth plays even with a non intensive bandwidth pattern. The Moome fairs much better.
you can see the ringing and over shoot in the Fury, the moome is a much cleaner patern
Scope pics of HD Fury III and Moome respectively.
EDIT: These were scoped by Craig Rounds of CIR Engineering. The best Calibration expert in the world!!  Sorry for not giving you credit buddy.
Fury at 1080p@60
Moome at 1080p@72 !!!
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the dude
Joined: 11 Sep 2013
Posts: 179
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| Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | No , that pic is the Grey scale bars I believe |
If this is one scanline, a gray scale would not give such a high frequency pattern.
Unfortunally we don't know. Scope shoots are quire useless if you don't know what you see.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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| the dude wrote: | | Quote: | | No , that pic is the Grey scale bars I believe |
If this is one scanline, a gray scale would not give such a high frequency pattern.
Unfortunally we don't know. Scope shoots are quire useless if you don't know what you see. |
Yeah I'm looking for the original thread. I forgot if it is here or over on AVS site.
It might be a burst pattern. Fox, do you have the original post link?
Nashou
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the dude
Joined: 11 Sep 2013
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| Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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Would be nice to have this pattern also
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
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redfox001
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redfox001
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| Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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Seems to be multiburst
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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He I am looking for a 1080p multiburst pattern and I read this from Craig
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Again, most calibrators make this adjustment by eye. I however use my oscilloscope along with my Accupel to set the exact sharpness level that is technically correct. This is not easy to do by eye as it can be subjective. However, with the use of a multiburst test pattern and an oscilloscope it's quite straight forward. Setting the sharpness to the technically correct level will maximize image detail without inducing distortions to the image such as ringing.
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I would like to learn doing this.
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the dude
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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You can use the multiburst as a means to look at bandwidth, but it cannot be a measuring tool or used for reference because it would not be an most accurate test. It can also be used without the concern for a FET probe when measuring on the neck boards (but you'll need to make up a connection circuit to put between the scope on connection).
So where you are going at this point, the multiburst would be best for now, but the vertical pixel distance is very important. And that's why it's also good to make sure the pattern is resolution ready.
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redfox001
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| Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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Multipass! 
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redfox001
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| Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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the dude
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| Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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Now you should compare than with the output of your moome card, just to get a idea of the influence of your scope bandwitdh.
I have a little off time right now, my avr has problems with the hdmi links. Yesterday there were some drop outs and some noise in the audio, and now it is almost dead. I think its a dead cap, there are some step down converters in there.
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redfox001
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| Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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For more measurements I have to solder wires. Damn I am now limiting the bandwidth to 20 MHz the manual says. BW close is off.
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redfox001
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| Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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Unlimited bandwidth looks like this. Does this mean there is some peaking somewhere? The 1 pixel seems a bit to high in amplitude.
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Last edited by redfox001 on Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:35 am; edited 1 time in total
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| redfox001 wrote: | | http://www.avsforum.com/forum/16-crt-projectors/1276124-barco-1080p-72hz.html |
Yep I was working cooking up a breakfast rush for my customers. I'm beat
here is his quote to have it here for reference.
| CIR-Engineering wrote: | I got a PM question regarding the photos I posted so here is the answer and explanation.
The photos I posted are of my oscilloscope displaying a multiburst test pattern from my Accupel HDG-4000 test pattern generator. To get the scope to display the pattern, the green BNC from the HDMI to RGBHV transcoder was connected to the scope input. A multiburst pattern looks like the image below when shown on your projector screen.
EDIT: Nashou is writing this, this is from wikipedia site.
What the multburst pattern shows is the bandwidth of the device being tested. The black and white alternating lines start out wide on the left and then get narrower and narrower towards the right side of the pattern. At the right side with the thinnest lines, the black and white lines are literally one pixel width wide. Since the lines are only one pixel width wide, they represent the maximum resolution of the device being tested.
The scope photos show 1080p 60Hz. What you see on the projector screen is a black and white alternating line. The scope shows the rise and fall of these lines as they go from black to white and back and forth.
Ideally, when you look at the multiburst on the projector screen, the 1 pixel wide lines would be just as bright as the lines that are very wide. In real world analog this is never the case.
However, what you want to see is a transcoder that does as good a job as is possible. If a transcoder were perfect, all the lines in the burst pattern from the thick ones to the thinnest ones would be exactly the same height (amplitude) on the scope.
What you see on the Moome box is that all the lines are the same height except for the very finest 1 pixel wide lines. What you see on the HDF3 is a kind of hour glass shape to the different width lines and the tightly spaced lines (high frequency) are not nearly as tall as the wide lines (attenuated). This means that the image can not be as sharp because the bandwidth is attenuated before it hits the projector and you can't properly draw edges of objects (softer).
Another observation from the scope shot is that there is a lot of noise and irregularities in the HDF3 multiburst. You can also see a lot of peaking (edge enhancements) on the high frequency part of the burst on the HDF3. The Moome box does not have these problems either.
On a 7" projector this won't really matter, on a good 8" projector it will make a difference, and on a good 9" projector it will make a huge difference.
craigr |
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the dude
Joined: 11 Sep 2013
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| Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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Some interesting tests on the Fury 2...
The fury was connected directly to the scope input via the BNC adapter, the scope was terminated internally with a 50 Ohm load. The hsync cable was connected to chanel 2 and used as the trigger.
At 48p the 1:1 pattern is almost the same amplitude as the first pattern. I watch movies at 48p when using the HTPC, so this is fine!
At 60p the amplitude drops a litte.
Now the fun beginns... 50 Ohm is not video impedance. The scope has only a internal 50 Ohm terminator. When this termination is turned off something interesting happens: The amplitude of the highest frequency increases. This indicates some kind of compensation maybe. It may be possible that at 75 Ohm the results look a little bit better at 60p. Something to be investigated.
Two things of the CIR test are unknown: What type of scope was used? What bandwidth is it? Maybe less than 300 Mhz? And what termination was used?
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