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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:21 am Post subject: |
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| CSX wrote: | I just finished the addition of the inductors.
Seriously, the difference was night and day.
-No capacitors changed yet, only the addition of 4 total inductors.
->I'm still watching this thread to possibly gear the capacitors for my typical usage.
I'd like to do the HVPS, but can't find a solid list of the values / types. I can match the values by color, but really want to ensure that I am ordering the correct value / material from Mouser. Would you happen to have this info handy, Nashou?
And again, this mod really does make a huge impact for the small amount of effort you have to exert to complete it. |
It has been so long ago that I first did the inductor mod I forgot how it does make a difference. The PJ i had that in I took down and sold off long ago when I got the twin LongBows. I never did this to them so Now I have to.
Basically my longbows are un modded except for the one with the Wet Tants on the CVA and VDM.
CSX, What do you need to change on the HVPS? Some of the newer models need nothing changed restore wise as VDC upgraded the Carbon comps to Metal film or wire wound.
If its the resistors then there was a little confusion when I remember doing this. On my old old old HVPS the CC resistors I removed had drifted a lot from the 560Kohm to 680Kohm. When I changed them to 560K original value I had a
weird glow on all tubes If I remember correctly. I think its documented in the marquee thread somewhere.
But now being more knowledgeable it might just have been the need to lower G2 values to match the newly installed correct value resistors.
So I would use a high wattage ( 2 watt ) Metal Film resistor. What I did on Justins HVPS as well was add 20uf Film caps on the incoming 390VDC lines. I think these were 25-30 dollars each. That is in the thread as well later on. I think they were Clarity Caps from partsconnexion in Canada. I was trying to do what Chris Stephens did on his highly acclaimed Accurate Imaging 9500LC's. However he used four 120uf 100vdc wet tantalums in series. Very Expensive to do, this caps are about 120 dollars each new !!! So the film caps have come down in physical size for the large value caps now. I think back then he may have used them if they were smaller as they are now.
So if you have the older carbon Comp brown resistors replace them all with the same value in Metal Film or Ceramic. In the thread we used Ceramic but I think a good metal film that will not become magnetic is also a good choice.I have not compare the two different types but I doubt it be much different.
Ohmite was the ceramic resistor brand we used back then from what Jea HongLea recommended to use.
EDIT: I had the value wrong they are 560Kohm I fixed it above.
Athanasios
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CSX
Joined: 11 Feb 2015
Posts: 142
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | | CSX wrote: | I just finished the addition of the inductors.
Seriously, the difference was night and day.
-No capacitors changed yet, only the addition of 4 total inductors.
->I'm still watching this thread to possibly gear the capacitors for my typical usage.
I'd like to do the HVPS, but can't find a solid list of the values / types. I can match the values by color, but really want to ensure that I am ordering the correct value / material from Mouser. Would you happen to have this info handy, Nashou?
And again, this mod really does make a huge impact for the small amount of effort you have to exert to complete it. |
It has been so long ago that I first did the inductor mod I forgot how it does make a difference. The PJ i had that in I took down and sold off long ago when I got the twin LongBows. I never did this to them so Now I have to.
Basically my longbows are un modded except for the one with the Wet Tants on the CVA and VDM.
CSX, What do you need to change on the HVPS? Some of the newer models need nothing changed restore wise as VDC upgraded the Carbon comps to Metal film or wire wound.
If its the resistors then there was a little confusion when I remember doing this. On my old old old HVPS the CC resistors I removed had drifted a lot from the 560Kohm to 680Kohm. When I changed them to 560K original value I had a
weird glow on all tubes If I remember correctly. I think its documented in the marquee thread somewhere.
But now being more knowledgeable it might just have been the need to lower G2 values to match the newly installed correct value resistors.
So I would use a high wattage ( 2 watt ) Metal Film resistor. What I did on Justins HVPS as well was add 20uf Film caps on the incoming 390VDC lines. I think these were 25-30 dollars each. That is in the thread as well later on. I think they were Clarity Caps from partsconnexion in Canada. I was trying to do what Chris Stephens did on his highly acclaimed Accurate Imaging 9500LC's. However he used four 120uf 100vdc wet tantalums in series. Very Expensive to do, this caps are about 120 dollars each new !!! So the film caps have come down in physical size for the large value caps now. I think back then he may have used them if they were smaller as they are now.
So if you have the older carbon Comp brown resistors replace them all with the same value in Metal Film or Ceramic. In the thread we used Ceramic but I think a good metal film that will not become magnetic is also a good choice.I have not compare the two different types but I doubt it be much different.
Ohmite was the ceramic resistor brand we used back then from what Jea HongLea recommended to use.
EDIT: I had the value wrong they are 560Kohm I fixed it above.
Athanasios |
I have an older HVPS. It definitely has the carbon resistors in it. I see quite a bit of picture noise / mosquitoing. (Addition of inductors really didn't make it worse from what I can tell. It's generally everywhere anyways.)
So I figured it's time to throw down and tune up the HVPS.
Thanks for the info. I found a couple of discussions involving the HVPS and your results, and soaked it in.
I've seen the same sort of issue pop up without any mods at all, after I placed the projector on the ceiling.
Never had a problem after a full reset, but from what I didn't know then to what I know now, it was probably the G2 #'s being ramped up probably a bit too aggressively during my initial learning curve, so I am going to agree with you.
-What's the particular reasoning behind adding the caps to the incoming voltage lines?
->Should I change the capacitors in there? Or just leave them be? I'm still also evaluating other capacitors for the task...
I'd like to take a dive into the CVA as well, but I'll do that at a slower pace. I'm going to spec the components this week and see if organic / polymer capacitors could be applied to the CVA. While more pricey than your high quality basic electrolytic, they are stable, have good reliability, and low noise. I could see CVA output and stability being improved by the use of these. Hypothetically. I'd also like to find more to do to the CVA than just throwing capacitors at it...
As CxTurbo questioned on page 2. Could the HDM benefit from the inductors? Or even some of the cards on the back?
I need to add some spare parts so I can freely tinker without the threat of irreparable damages causing long downtime delays. Ugh. This hobby IS dangerous! 
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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| CSX wrote: |
-No capacitors changed yet, only the addition of 4 total inductors.
->I'm still watching this thread to possibly gear the capacitors for my typical usage. |
I've mentioned this earlier in this thread, to not change any of the caps on the FGM. I'm on the phone right now talking to someone that first installed the inductors, then later swapped caps. And said after changing the caps, the focus changed but was not better or as it was before.
Just an FYI.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | CSX wrote: |
-No capacitors changed yet, only the addition of 4 total inductors.
->I'm still watching this thread to possibly gear the capacitors for my typical usage. |
I've mentioned this earlier in this thread, to not change any of the caps on the FGM. I'm on the phone right now talking to someone that first installed the inductors, then later swapped caps. And said after changing the caps, the focus changed but was not better or as it was before.
Just an FYI. |
Yep, that is normal. If you change the caps first before ever adding the inductors you will see a "slight" improvement in focus but more its for stability of focus but not as much a visible one. That is it will not need adjusting over time.
The inductors improvement is visible right away.
Nashou
_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | | mp20748 wrote: | | CSX wrote: |
-No capacitors changed yet, only the addition of 4 total inductors.
->I'm still watching this thread to possibly gear the capacitors for my typical usage. |
I've mentioned this earlier in this thread, to not change any of the caps on the FGM. I'm on the phone right now talking to someone that first installed the inductors, then later swapped caps. And said after changing the caps, the focus changed but was not better or as it was before.
Just an FYI. |
Yep, that is normal. If you change the caps first before ever adding the inductors you will see a "slight" improvement in focus but more its for stability of focus but not as much a visible one. That is it will not need adjusting over time.
The inductors improvement is visible right away.
Nashou |
Nash, this particular mod is very different from anything we've tried before. And I'm thinking about the small inductors you have in your picture. It is a completely different result. I've tried various inductors over the years in the same spot, with only very slight to no difference noticed. The thing that makes this particular one different is the size, inductance and DC resistance of the inductor being used. The end results are not like anything I've even seen before, nor do I recall anyone ever getting similar results.
Changing the caps sound like a good idea, but we've found that it can make things worse again. So regardless if you change the caps before or after, it's not a good idea to do so, because it could throw the circuit off. The values as well are critical. It is not a good idea to go with larger values. I've already tested this.
Just want to be clear that we are most likely talking about two totally different changes with different results
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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Jesus H. Christ.................oops I mean Mike. How the heck are you? Still playing around with projectors I see 
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A Barco is only a AmPro with training wheels
Card carrying member of the AVS chain gang.
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CSX
Joined: 11 Feb 2015
Posts: 142
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | Nashou66 wrote: | | mp20748 wrote: | | CSX wrote: |
-No capacitors changed yet, only the addition of 4 total inductors.
->I'm still watching this thread to possibly gear the capacitors for my typical usage. |
I've mentioned this earlier in this thread, to not change any of the caps on the FGM. I'm on the phone right now talking to someone that first installed the inductors, then later swapped caps. And said after changing the caps, the focus changed but was not better or as it was before.
Just an FYI. |
Yep, that is normal. If you change the caps first before ever adding the inductors you will see a "slight" improvement in focus but more its for stability of focus but not as much a visible one. That is it will not need adjusting over time.
The inductors improvement is visible right away.
Nashou |
Nash, this particular mod is very different from anything we've tried before. And I'm thinking about the small inductors you have in your picture. It is a completely different result. I've tried various inductors over the years in the same spot, with only very slight to no difference noticed. The thing that makes this particular one different is the size, inductance and DC resistance of the inductor being used. The end results are not like anything I've even seen before, nor do I recall anyone ever getting similar results.
Changing the caps sound like a good idea, but we've found that it can make things worse again. So regardless if you change the caps before or after, it's not a good idea to do so, because it could throw the circuit off. The values as well are critical. It is not a good idea to go with larger values. I've already tested this.
Just want to be clear that we are most likely talking about two totally different changes with different results |
So if this is the case, then in theory some of the HDM could also use inductors? Especially the power rails closest to the connector?
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | Nashou66 wrote: | | mp20748 wrote: | | CSX wrote: |
-No capacitors changed yet, only the addition of 4 total inductors.
->I'm still watching this thread to possibly gear the capacitors for my typical usage. |
I've mentioned this earlier in this thread, to not change any of the caps on the FGM. I'm on the phone right now talking to someone that first installed the inductors, then later swapped caps. And said after changing the caps, the focus changed but was not better or as it was before.
Just an FYI. |
Yep, that is normal. If you change the caps first before ever adding the inductors you will see a "slight" improvement in focus but more its for stability of focus but not as much a visible one. That is it will not need adjusting over time.
The inductors improvement is visible right away.
Nashou |
Nash, this particular mod is very different from anything we've tried before. And I'm thinking about the small inductors you have in your picture. It is a completely different result. I've tried various inductors over the years in the same spot, with only very slight to no difference noticed. The thing that makes this particular one different is the size, inductance and DC resistance of the inductor being used. The end results are not like anything I've even seen before, nor do I recall anyone ever getting similar results.
Changing the caps sound like a good idea, but we've found that it can make things worse again. So regardless if you change the caps before or after, it's not a good idea to do so, because it could throw the circuit off. The values as well are critical. It is not a good idea to go with larger values. I've already tested this.
Just want to be clear that we are most likely talking about two totally different changes with different results |
Hi Mike, I think your thinking of my very first try with the inductors and I used low current 270uh ones . I quickly remedied that after someone posted that the current is much higher than what I was using could handle. That is when I replaced them with these.
27uh DCR of .030 Ohms and a current rating of 4.5 amps. These are not small . And they did improve focus.
Now with going from 470uf caps to 1000f caps. From what I saw was no deterioration of focus but what was improved was the need to go back every couple weeks and re check focus and make changes. Before with my old caps I noticed focus bloom over time. Touching it up fixed it but just for a few weeks. I didn't have any 470f caps but remember
Chris Stephens used 1000f caps there. I had these so I used them. I now only had to touch up focus ones every 3 -4 months. That is the stability I was trying to convey.
Hope this clears things up.
Nashou
_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: |
Now with going from 470uf caps to 1000f caps. From what I saw was no deterioration of focus but what was improved was the need to go back every couple weeks and re check focus and make changes. Before with my old caps I noticed focus bloom over time. Touching it up fixed it but just for a few weeks. I didn't have any 470f caps but remember
Chris Stephens used 1000f caps there. I had these so I used them. I now only had to touch up focus ones every 3 -4 months. That is the stability I was trying to convey.
Hope this clears things up.
Nashou |
I used to load down with higher value caps, until one day the projector started clicking before powering up. I knew immediately why that was happening and then removed the caps and things got back to normal.
Two reasons to not overload with higher capacitance in my opinion and experience:
1, Too many or adding excessive capacitance to the rails puts a load on the LVPS during start-up, and could cause premature failure to it.
2, The need for higher capacitance in high frequency switching power supplies, is far different from what would make sense in a passive supply that operates at 50 or 60hz. Higher capacitance does wonders on very low frequency rails, but with higher frequency rails, putting higher value caps are not really necessary. After the phone conversation I yanked out my FGM this morning and put some caps back in place. I only had caps replaced on the rails on mine.
Also, as it is with my neck boards. I used to use 100uf on the 85 volt rails. I've since switch to using 33uf. I found out because of the frequency of the LVPS the 33 was all that was needed. But I had also replaced the smaller value caps (C52 and C58) to a larger value (from .01uf). This is where the real difference is made. The 100uf did almost nothing being there, other than help load down the rail. The 33 also worked better, because it was better suited for the frequency.
Not sure why the focus circuit is so sensitive to component change, but I've learned over the years, that if you change any caps anywhere other than the rails, it could make the overall performance worse. And thinking it was safe to do the rails only turned out to not be the case. Or at least with the coils I've added.
Let me also mention this while I'm here:
I have a few upgrades for those who have the very latest (this year version) of my mods. I want this upgrade to be DIY. It'll only require the replacement of only two common components. I'll also be looking into seeing if I can put a few things on a blog on my website. That way there will always be an easy access to this change and a few others I want to make accessible. I also want to post a focus procedure that I use, that involves using a camera on a Tripod. Because the internal test patterns are not the best when focusing up to 1080P, because once it's always best to focus to source at the higher scan rates. One of the upgrades will improve on sharpness and detail substantially. These are all easy DIY changes.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| CSX wrote: |
I'd like to take a dive into the CVA as well, but I'll do that at a slower pace. I'm going to spec the components this week and see if organic / polymer capacitors could be applied to the CVA. While more pricey than your high quality basic electrolytic, they are stable, have good reliability, and low noise. I could see CVA output and stability being improved by the use of these. Hypothetically. I'd also like to find more to do to the CVA than just throwing capacitors at it...
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The thing with this is it is hard to find high enough voltage OsCons, at least 35vdc. Most max out at 25 unless they came out with new versions. I have not looked in a while.
Nashou
_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
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CSX
Joined: 11 Feb 2015
Posts: 142
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: |
I have a few upgrades for those who have the very latest (this year version) of my mods. I want this upgrade to be DIY. It'll only require the replacement of only two common components. I'll also be looking into seeing if I can put a few things on a blog on my website. That way there will always be an easy access to this change and a few others I want to make accessible. I also want to post a focus procedure that I use, that involves using a camera on a Tripod. Because the internal test patterns are not the best when focusing up to 1080P, because once it's always best to focus to source at the higher scan rates. One of the upgrades will improve on sharpness and detail substantially. These are all easy DIY changes. |
Very very interesting... I'll be keeping an eye out for this, absolutely.
| Nashou66 wrote: |
The thing with this is it is hard to find high enough voltage OsCons, at least 35vdc. Most max out at 25 unless they came out with new versions. I have not looked in a while.
Nashou |
Yes, this is very true. I started spec-ing yesterday, but that's definitely a wall that I have hit. I thought of those first, since I moved to those in my sound console with great success.
I'm now comparing technologies, and regular capacitors as well for the task to build up the CVA.
I did eye a few electrolytics that are good up to 150C, and figured they may be an acceptable alternative.
I'm still looking at the fine figures, ripple current, etc on those.
I've also considered axial/radial polypropylene for this board, but not too sure of the consequences of use in an area like the CVA. I'm used to audio circuits, and this CRT stuff is a whole new (exciting) world for me.
However the possible gains made by using polypropylene capacitors may be canceled out by how they may have to be installed, and one would just be better off using a fine grade electrolytic anyways.
Additionally, I also studied the HDM and CVA briefly last night for inductor possibilities. I'm gonna pass on that for now, as I would probably have to order a different type of inductors, unless someone else has some ideas that are a little more well formed than my own.
Bah.
COMPLICATED.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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CSX
Joined: 11 Feb 2015
Posts: 142
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | LOL, Yep CSX is Hooked on POOGE'Ing.
PS: Pooge Progressive optimization of generic electronics.
Audio Express magazine had some articles on this.
Look at Soft recovery diodes for the CVA. VDM, VNB,FCM etc.
Nashou |
I have a severe problem with that, regardless. I can't seem to leave my sound console nor Fairlight alone.
Had been pretty content to just throw the projector on the ceiling and let it be, but then the work of you and Mike really got the mind running, and really seeing great results leads to allowing myself to work on it more. Let the solder flow!
Side question: Did the resistor changes on the CVA really facilitate a significant change, capacitors aside?
->Is that sort of thing beneficial in a chassis with about 7000 hours on it?
Probably missing something... But so far, the most amazing red and blue picture I've ever seen.
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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We've been going further on the FGM this morning. So far, we've made a few more changes in that how I've always used my RED CRT as the tube to display the test pattern, it is has now changed to me now using the GREEN. Because it is now my Sharpest. That is because of the recent changes we've made today.
We're still working on the Static Focus stages, because that is the Center and most global of the focus ranges.
So what we've done further is remove the TEMP circuit (just wait for the PJ to warm up) from the Static Focus stages, by removing a resistor. And we've also removed another connecting circuit, that has nothing to do with global focus. To separating (isolating) the signal that drive the Static power stage, by better filtering out the HF noise from the previous stages and DAC's. This allowed for a more clean and precise focus pulse after the end results.
The temp circuit works from a Temperature sensor installed in the Focus coils. Not sure if it's supposed to offer a better different focus when the set is cold, or to it correcting on the focus when it gets hotter. Not sure what it's real purpose (and it ain't worth reading up on), but a temp compensation circuit for the focus makes no sense to me. So it's out on my board.
We'll post more on this later..................
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barclay66
Joined: 27 Jun 2011
Posts: 1304
Location: Germany
TV/Projector: Marquee 9500 Ultra
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| Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | ...Not sure what it's real purpose (and it ain't worth reading up on), but a temp compensation circuit for the focus makes no sense to me... |
Hi,
Coil inductance changes over temperature and as the focus coil inductance affects the self-resonant behaviour, this actually may make sense. Maybe the characteristics of the compensation circuit could need improvement instead of removing it...
Regards,
barclay66
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| barclay66 wrote: | | mp20748 wrote: | | ...Not sure what it's real purpose (and it ain't worth reading up on), but a temp compensation circuit for the focus makes no sense to me... |
Hi,
Coil inductance changes over temperature and as the focus coil inductance affects the self-resonant behaviour, this actually may make sense. Maybe the characteristics of the compensation circuit could need improvement instead of removing it...
Regards,
barclay66 |
Ok, that helps. But what I was also saying was we usually dial the focus in when the unit warms up. Once that happens, the temperature is usually stable and the need for compensation at that point seems to go out the window.
Also, the Marquee is the only projector If I remember correctly that uses this temp circuit.
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CSX
Joined: 11 Feb 2015
Posts: 142
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:45 am Post subject: |
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So I put the same inductors on the 24v lines of the cva just after the ribbon connector.
I feel something is wrong here......
Image after a total reset. No adjustment except to center,
Wtf?
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:53 am Post subject: |
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I also have them on my CVA. Don't remember a radical grid change as such, but would expect some difference in the grid after installing the coils there
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CSX
Joined: 11 Feb 2015
Posts: 142
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:57 am Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | I also have them on my CVA. Don't remember a radical grid change as such, but would expect some difference in the grid after installing the coils there |
If I adjust this with convergence grid, is this a no no? Should I find different inductors? Or go for it?
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