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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 4:15 am Post subject: |
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Sry wrong thread 
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Last edited by redfox001 on Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:36 am; edited 13 times in total
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
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Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 4:24 am Post subject: |
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My proof? Take a handhold camera on a tripod. Set it to 1.5 sec exposure and a scene of Baraka. You will be shocked how good that g90 looks and that dlp to by the way. So much punch and light! In fact a single marquee at 5 ftL can beat a tripple stack with that simple trick.
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cmjohnson
Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s
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| Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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Having seen some 4K demo material, which of course, is carefully filmed, processed, and displayed to show off the detail capacity of 4K, and this being on a screen size that I consider to be hardly any bigger than my PiP window, I am quite certain that 4K is absolutely capable of delivering a level of visual detail that is completely impossible to replicate by upsampling standard HD no matter what processing tricks you may apply to it.
I am sure beyond any doubt that 4K material downsampled to 3K will look better than 1080p/2K material upscaled to 3K.
And THAT is the point behind my personal quest for 4K. It may be that 4K simply exceeds both the bandwidth budget and the system resolution capacity of any CRT projector that could possibly be created from existing chassis and components, but if we can make it 4K compatible and then get a good downsampled 3K image out of it, that would have been worth the effort.
And, no, you can not mathematically prove that you can upsample 2K material to deliver the level of detail that 4K native material can deliver. You can not recreate high frequency information that was completely stripped from the data before processing. Nyquist applies, or the digital domain equivalent. It's above the filter and that information is LOST.
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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Craig as usual hits the nail on the head. The biggest problem will be color gamut. I haven't checked the specs to see if there will be a way to run UHD with 709 or not.
I would think it might be possible to run scope UHD on a blend, but I'll let Craig try to crunch the numbers and figure this out on a single pj.
It should also be noted that 4k is not the same as UHD. The latter being 3840x2160.
| GREG1292 wrote: | | draganm wrote: | | CIR Engineering wrote: | For whatever reason, more people are willing to spend money on Sony and Barco projectors than Marquee projectors in general. I have seen this trend personally over the past ten years. The number of Marquee CRT projectors I maintain has gone down and plummeted over the past two years. The number of G90 and Barco projectors I maintain continues to increase (though at a slower rate than in the past).
craigr |
based on the pic thrown by the new VDC machines this is not a surprise. Between the (never set correctly) trim pots/peaking circuit and the "Black pedestal destruction mod" the video performance is actually lower than the older machines. This is at least fixe-able, but not if your a dumpster diving skin-flint  |
Interesting having seen properly setup and calibrated so called high end Sony G90 stack that was lifeless and just flat unimpressive I am a proud owner of surplus projector that you all paid for and when all the mods are installed and proper boards modified the image is stunning. So the diving begins when you bash VDC/MP/Moome. Post your smpte pattern with you calibrated Barco and Sony's and show everyone how good it really is. |
Since everyone seems to be jumping on Red to post his measurements of MTF and etc., what about MP? I would like to see his MTF data as well.
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:39 am Post subject: |
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| cmjohnson wrote: | Having seen some 4K demo material, which of course, is carefully filmed, processed, and displayed to show off the detail capacity of 4K, and this being on a screen size that I consider to be hardly any bigger than my PiP window, I am quite certain that 4K is absolutely capable of delivering a level of visual detail that is completely impossible to replicate by upsampling standard HD no matter what processing tricks you may apply to it.
I am sure beyond any doubt that 4K material downsampled to 3K will look better than 1080p/2K material upscaled to 3K.
And THAT is the point behind my personal quest for 4K. It may be that 4K simply exceeds both the bandwidth budget and the system resolution capacity of any CRT projector that could possibly be created from existing chassis and components, but if we can make it 4K compatible and then get a good downsampled 3K image out of it, that would have been worth the effort.
And, no, you can not mathematically prove that you can upsample 2K material to deliver the level of detail that 4K native material can deliver. You can not recreate high frequency information that was completely stripped from the data before processing. Nyquist applies, or the digital domain equivalent. It's above the filter and that information is LOST. |
I have read a lot of guys that did not see or care about the difference. I watched on my 4k tv with the right setting unscaled looked the same. So you are a bit of a don quichot 
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cmjohnson
Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s
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| Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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I see the difference and I appreciate it. Sorry if you are not so blessed with the requisite visual acuity, Mrs. Keller.
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: | Craig as usual hits the nail on the head. The biggest problem will be color gamut. I haven't checked the specs to see if there will be a way to run UHD with 709 or not.
I would think it might be possible to run scope UHD on a blend, but I'll let Craig try to crunch the numbers and figure this out on a single pj.
It should also be noted that 4k is not the same as UHD. The latter being 3840x2160.
| GREG1292 wrote: | | draganm wrote: | | CIR Engineering wrote: | For whatever reason, more people are willing to spend money on Sony and Barco projectors than Marquee projectors in general. I have seen this trend personally over the past ten years. The number of Marquee CRT projectors I maintain has gone down and plummeted over the past two years. The number of G90 and Barco projectors I maintain continues to increase (though at a slower rate than in the past).
craigr |
based on the pic thrown by the new VDC machines this is not a surprise. Between the (never set correctly) trim pots/peaking circuit and the "Black pedestal destruction mod" the video performance is actually lower than the older machines. This is at least fixe-able, but not if your a dumpster diving skin-flint |
Interesting having seen properly setup and calibrated so called high end Sony G90 stack that was lifeless and just flat unimpressive I am a proud owner of surplus projector that you all paid for and when all the mods are installed and proper boards modified the image is stunning. So the diving begins when you bash VDC/MP/Moome. Post your smpte pattern with you calibrated Barco and Sony's and show everyone how good it really is. |
Since everyone seems to be jumping on Red to post his measurements of MTF and etc., what about MP? I would like to see his MTF data as well. |
To the point of 4K versus UHD; you are absolutely correct Eric. That said, the 4k material that will probably be most available is 4kBD and that has the spec and capability for UHD. Now the interesting thing is that UHD can have the use of multiple color gamuts. There are many flags in the HDMI info frames for UHD sources; four to be exact.
There is one flag for Rec709, one for Rec709 HDR, a flag for Rec2020, and a flag for Rec2020 HDR. It gets more interesting because of course the DCI P3 color gamut is also included as a color gamut for UHD. In fact P3 is the primary gamut for UDH right now because not even digital projectors can produce Rec2020 yet. That's right, there is not even a single mighty digital projector that can reproduce Rec2020 yet.
So it gets even more interesting... DCI P3 is of course much larger than Rec709, but is still much smaller than Rec2020. The cool thing about the standard is that the color gamut is all dependent on the info frame flag to tell the projector what gamut is being used. This is because the digital values for all three gamuts are the same, the projector just has to know where on the gamut to assign them. The cooler thing about Rec2020 versus DCI P3 is that they both use the same flag. Sing DCI P3 fits inside Rec2020, when DCI P3 is used, the coordinates required by the projector simply remain inside the P3 color gamut and the coordinates between Rec2020 and DCI P3 are never addressed by the source.
DCI P3 is still a very large gamut much more encompassing than Rec709. Whether or not we can get a CRT to reproduce DCI P3 is questionable, but maybe. We would need to either have custom tinted celements produced or find a reliable way to color existing celements.
Worst case, the Lumagen PRO could be used to down sample the Rec2020 / DCI P3 color gamut to Rec709, but then of course the added colors of UHD would be lost.
We are at the very begging of this new frontier. Kind of like the transition from Rec601 to Rec709 when HD took over to replace SD. We will see what drops out of it in the end.
craigr
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| GREG1292 wrote: | | draganm wrote: | | CIR Engineering wrote: | For whatever reason, more people are willing to spend money on Sony and Barco projectors than Marquee projectors in general. I have seen this trend personally over the past ten years. The number of Marquee CRT projectors I maintain has gone down and plummeted over the past two years. The number of G90 and Barco projectors I maintain continues to increase (though at a slower rate than in the past).
craigr |
based on the pic thrown by the new VDC machines this is not a surprise. Between the (never set correctly) trim pots/peaking circuit and the "Black pedestal destruction mod" the video performance is actually lower than the older machines. This is at least fixe-able, but not if your a dumpster diving skin-flint |
Interesting having seen properly setup and calibrated so called high end Sony G90 stack that was lifeless and just flat unimpressive I am a proud owner of surplus projector that you all paid for and when all the mods are installed and proper boards modified the image is stunning. So the diving begins when you bash VDC/MP/Moome. Post your smpte pattern with you calibrated Barco and Sony's and show everyone how good it really is. |
Hey Greg,
I don't think you live too far from me. If you are ever in Chicago and want to see what a G90 is supposed to actually look like you are welcome to come by for a demo.
If you are referring to Cliff's stack I honestly have to agree with you on how it looked. Cliff really enjoyed a very artificially low gamma curve and to my eye it did indeed make the image very washed out and rather lifeless. Relativly speaking it was of course still a very good picture, and most people who saw the stack were really impressed by it. But that said, Cliff and I were always contentious about that point. While I would never have said it on the forum while he was alive, I told Cliff to his face quite a few times what I thought, and he really didn't like my opinion very much (those of you who knew Cliff might imagine the results of our conversations challenging the total dominance of his stack as THE reference ).
There was one brief period of time when I calibrated his stack how I thought it looked best, but in less than a couple weeks he pulled all the tubes and replaced them destroying the calibration. I believe it was then only auto re-calibrated using only the Lumagen grayscale controls with software while not doing greyscale in the G90's first (at least that's what Cliff explained to me). In any event, this is not the way I would have liked the projectors to be setup if I were the one using them. At that point, I think the stack was at it's lowest image quality so if you saw it then it was probably really rather off. This I beleive was true during his final meet as well... now I am depressed.
craigr
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barclay66
Joined: 27 Jun 2011
Posts: 1304
Location: Germany
TV/Projector: Marquee 9500 Ultra
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| Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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| CIR Engineering wrote: | | Whether or not we can get a CRT to reproduce DCI P3 is questionable, but maybe. We would need to either have custom tinted celements produced or find a reliable way to color existing celements. |
Hi,
As far as I understand it, the CRT phosphor is the limiting factor. If -for example- a red LUG tube has its peak wavelength at 612nm and at the same time You would need 615nm for DCI P3, the solution using a C element would have to block any light differing from 615nm. It is questionable if the remaining light output would be enough for being usable...
Regards,
barclay66
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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| barclay66 wrote: | | CIR Engineering wrote: | | Whether or not we can get a CRT to reproduce DCI P3 is questionable, but maybe. We would need to either have custom tinted celements produced or find a reliable way to color existing celements. |
Hi,
As far as I understand it, the CRT phosphor is the limiting factor. If -for example- a red LUG tube has its peak wavelength at 612nm and at the same time You would need 615nm for DCI P3, the solution using a C element would have to block any light differing from 615nm. It is questionable if the remaining light output would be enough for being usable...
Regards,
barclay66 |
EXACTLY and very well worded. This is my concern as well and I just don't think CRT can do it. We have a better chance at DCI P3 than Rec2020 though.
craigr
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cmjohnson
Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s
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| Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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Color gamut issues will be rather minor, in my opinion. Sure, we may not have the broad color gamut possibilities of UHD but if I can get substantially more than 2K resolution, I can deal with a slight loss of near IR and near UV! These things can be transcoded in software, anyway. It may not be technically "correct" color, but it'd be closer than the dye transfer Technicolor process was to being technically correct, and nobody ever complained about that.
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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To me the color benefit of UHD is far more important than the resolution. IMHO the best part of UHD is the benefit of the color resolution. This is a difference between individual people that I have noticed over many years of calibration and video engineering; some are more attune to sharpness and focus, others to color fidelity and gamma. While I appreciate all aspects of quality video, I am certainly a color fidelity and gamma guy, and having colors not technically correct will absolutely bother me in real world video video.
Just asking, but are you color blind or color deficient (partially color blind). I have many clients who are. Most have trouble with red, but some are totally color blind. To them, obviously color does not mean a great deal or is at least less importaint. Just curious.
craigr
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cmjohnson
Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s
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| Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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No, actually I'm one of those males who scores perfect on every color blindness test.
There are 44 possible gene combinations that affect a man's color sensitivity. If you have the most sensitive gene combination, you have the same color acuity that women typically do. I have that.
Ever noticed how many shades of red there are in lipstick, nail polish, etc? Women see them all as unique and varied. So do SOME men, like me. Others just see 'something reddish' and that's about it.
I differentiate between scarlet, crimson, ruby, magenta, etc.
On this, every panel is distinct and different, to me.
No doubt there will be some people who see some patches as being indistinguishable from others. They won't be female.
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 1:01 am Post subject: |
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That's a cool image. I see all the colors as well so I guess I see just like a woman too I'd be curious to have a poll on who doesn't see them all. I also would wager that a forum full of videophiles probably tends to see more colors than the average male population sample.
craigr
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Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying
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Phone: 865-405-6892
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 3:53 am Post subject: |
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What animal is hiding in this picture? Is fun  CM should spot it immediately.
 image by Radio Head, on Flickr
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cmjohnson
Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s
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| Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:06 am Post subject: |
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Cat in the medium right. There's also a rabbit. Do you see it?
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:08 am Post subject: |
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Nice! Some people do not see it even when told where. I see no rabit. Are you tricking me
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:45 am Post subject: |
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I'm not certain it is actually a rabbit, but I do see it, and it could very well be a rabbit.
craigr
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Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
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| Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:47 am Post subject: |
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SOILER - don't read if you want to find the rabbit yourself
"Rabbit" is near the bottom right of center
craigr
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Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:53 am Post subject: |
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Cat does not see or smell it but who knows
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