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gjaky
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2802
Location: Budapest, Hungary
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| Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 11:13 am Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: |
The next level is to start use the full potential of the format we have already, and you still need to lower your video resolution/ bandwidth to better resolve in on your CRT. |
Have you ever wondered about that the content makers aren't (or won't) doing 1080P blu-ray movies to take their full potential, in favour of 4K contents (if there will be) to make them more appealing? Similar thing have happened with the DVD-Blu-ray crossover.
| Quote: | If you can display both a fully resolved 1080P 72hz croma and luma signal, who behaves totally linear across the hole grayscale, then you will have a very unike digital, and analog video chain.
So maybe you should try out some 720P material and get that perfect before you wish for more. After that you can try if there is any potential left and push it up to 1080P. |
Yes, but except you and probably one or two more people, the rest would find 1080P better looking on an unmodified Barco 909 than 720P, so what's up with that (without mentioning chroma, luma, or bandwidth)? 
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 11:30 am Post subject: |
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| gjaky wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: |
The next level is to start use the full potential of the format we have already, and you still need to lower your video resolution/ bandwidth to better resolve in on your CRT. |
Have you ever wondered about that the content makers aren't (or won't) doing 1080P blu-ray movies to take their full potential, in favour of 4K contents (if there will be) to make them more appealing? Similar thing have happened with the DVD-Blu-ray crossover.
| Quote: | If you can display both a fully resolved 1080P 72hz croma and luma signal, who behaves totally linear across the hole grayscale, then you will have a very unike digital, and analog video chain.
So maybe you should try out some 720P material and get that perfect before you wish for more. After that you can try if there is any potential left and push it up to 1080P. |
Yes, but except you and probably one or two more people, the rest would find 1080P better looking on an unmodified Barco 909 than 720P, so what's up with that (without mentioning chroma, luma, or bandwidth)? |
About 4K the good point if there will be one. So lets leave that one until we might get a 4K disc format.
Now i have seen someone in here post that 720P did look better on a 909, but as there is no 720P content, you need scaling/ processing, so you very well prefer a 1080P non scaled who is resolved badly, it must be up to the one watching.
The point in this thread is that we have Moome cards for most of the CRT projectors who will outperform the analog chain in every standard CRT projector, and if we take the 909 ill say it might use around 33% of the potential of the moome card.
What existing format would you like to see on your reference CRT projector, and how will you resolve it, so it will look better than what your running today.?
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gjaky
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2802
Location: Budapest, Hungary
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| Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | The point in this thread is that we have Moome cards for most of the CRT projectors who will outperform the analog chain in every standard CRT projector, and if we take the 909 ill say it might use around 33% of the potential of the moome card.
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Of course that is the way it should be, as it were discussed earlier, putting two bandwidth limited systems together will worsen the overall bandwidth even more. In other words the 909 may have 100MHz BW alone, but with pairing with a moome card that have 300MHz bandwidth, will act as a system of 95MHz bandwidth.
The same thing with a super-CRT projector with 300MHz pure bandwidth paired with the same 300MHz moome card will act up as a 212MHz system. And the sad thing is that there won't be any HDMI 1.4 cards that have better bandwidth than 300MHz...
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projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB, VIM-DB
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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I agree that 1080p looks better on a 909 than 720p even if 720p resolves better. The extra lines do something. Happens with 720p tv series source material but when I go to 1080p@72 the picture becomes very soft and bad. So there is a point where two things are battling eachother?
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Last edited by redfox001 on Wed Dec 24, 2014 1:24 pm; edited 2 times in total
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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| gjaky wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | The point in this thread is that we have Moome cards for most of the CRT projectors who will outperform the analog chain in every standard CRT projector, and if we take the 909 ill say it might use around 33% of the potential of the moome card.
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Of course that is the way it should be, as it were discussed earlier, putting two bandwidth limited systems together will worsen the overall bandwidth even more. In other words the 909 may have 100MHz BW alone, but with pairing with a moome card that have 300MHz bandwidth, will act as a system of 95MHz bandwidth.
The same thing with a super-CRT projector with 300MHz pure bandwidth paired with the same 300MHz moome card will act up as a 212MHz system. And the sad thing is that there won't be any HDMI 1.4 cards that have better bandwidth than 300MHz... |
And why is that so sad, who do you know that need to resolve a 300Mhz signal.?
Also remember that the tubes and optical path is on the edge as is with 1080P now.
And where do you think the H total will end with a 300Mhz signal to push out raster ringing.?
When i get my test generator ill try see how high the moome card will go with and without buffer.
Justin is the only one i know who is running 1080P 72hz pushing 200Mhz who is resolved very very well.
So what marked is there for 300Mhz + DAC cards.?
You all like the high nr, but most of you are to cheep to buy equipment who will make it possible, and most of you dont have a clue what your looking at.
Merry Cristmas.
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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I do agree that the higher number is a foolish thing to go after. In digital the more pixels make for less pixel edges and that looks smoother even if it is just scaled. In CRT it looks smooth already so the only reason for more lines would be if you could still see scanlines at you seat.
Now 4k material might benefit from downscaling it to 1080p. Mike said so 
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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| redfox001 wrote: | I do agree that the higher number is a foolish thing to go after. In digital the more pixels make for less pixel edges and that looks smoother even if it is just scaled. In CRT it looks smooth already so the only reason for more lines would be if you could still see scanlines at you seat.
Now 4k material might benefit from downscaling it to 1080p. Mike said so |
I like the idea of a 4K 4:2:0 with a stupid downscaling, trowing away 75% of the pixels, and make it a 1080P 4:4:4 if anyone will offer a processor who wil do that without messing it all up in other parameters.
You should put a set of low resolution tubes in the 909, that way you would get a more symmetrical way of resolving the signal.
I dont like the idea of high resolution tubes with a very low resolution video chain. Barco 808 tubes might work fine.
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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I tried once to defocus the tubes a bit and despite of all the theory it does not get better 
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| redfox001 wrote: | | I tried once to defocus the tubes a bit and despite of all the theory it does not get better |
I belive that, as defocusing a LUG tube wont change it to a LCP tube or whatever you can get.
I belive you need to match the tube gun to your video chain.
Ill like one day to put my new LUG tubes in the Marquee, but i really dont see a good reason, as i have scanline gaps at low level output, when looking the tube face with standard yokes, and using sharper tubes can only result in less light output, and burn the tubes faster.
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gjaky
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2802
Location: Budapest, Hungary
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| Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | gjaky wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | The point in this thread is that we have Moome cards for most of the CRT projectors who will outperform the analog chain in every standard CRT projector, and if we take the 909 ill say it might use around 33% of the potential of the moome card.
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Of course that is the way it should be, as it were discussed earlier, putting two bandwidth limited systems together will worsen the overall bandwidth even more. In other words the 909 may have 100MHz BW alone, but with pairing with a moome card that have 300MHz bandwidth, will act as a system of 95MHz bandwidth.
The same thing with a super-CRT projector with 300MHz pure bandwidth paired with the same 300MHz moome card will act up as a 212MHz system. And the sad thing is that there won't be any HDMI 1.4 cards that have better bandwidth than 300MHz... |
And why is that so sad, who do you know that need to resolve a 300Mhz signal.?
Also remember that the tubes and optical path is on the edge as is with 1080P now.
And where do you think the H total will end with a 300Mhz signal to push out raster ringing.?
When i get my test generator ill try see how high the moome card will go with and without buffer.
Justin is the only one i know who is running 1080P 72hz pushing 200Mhz who is resolved very very well.
So what marked is there for 300Mhz + DAC cards.?
You all like the high nr, but most of you are to cheep to buy equipment who will make it possible, and most of you dont have a clue what your looking at.
Merry Cristmas. |
I wasn't saying anything for pursuing 4K, I was just saying that regardless of 4K we always should look for better DACs...
You have to understand that when you speak of 1080p72Hz signal with 200MHz pixel clock, it has to resolve a square wave of 100MHz, that actualy eats more bandwidth than a 200MHz sine signal, that's why you need faster DACs. It's all about the slew-rate, not about whether you want to push it up to 4K.
With an even better DAC Justin might be able to do an even better 1080P-72Hz, remember again that the latest moome card doesn't live up to the better 5-7 years old PC VGA card's bandwidth.
_________________
projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB, VIM-DB
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | redfox001 wrote: | | I tried once to defocus the tubes a bit and despite of all the theory it does not get better |
I belive that, as defocusing a LUG tube wont change it to a LCP tube or whatever you can get.
I belive you need to match the tube gun to your video chain.
Ill like one day to put my new LUG tubes in the Marquee, but i really dont see a good reason, as i have scanline gaps at low level output, when looking the tube face with standard yokes, and using sharper tubes can only result in less light output, and burn the tubes faster. |
I hope that the MP boards will make 1080p look like 4k. I hope so because the beam can go from full whit to full black in one pixel and still has the smooth edge that appears in upscaled 4k. Mike said it looked like looking through a window and the screenshots suggest that too. When I look at the 4k television from my brother I see a much better sharpness that 1080p. Again I hope the MP boards will produce the same sharpness.
About defocussing being something else than LCP I do not understand. In LCP the gun is a little different making teh tube focus a little worse. If I defocus a LUG what would be different?
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| gjaky wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | gjaky wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | The point in this thread is that we have Moome cards for most of the CRT projectors who will outperform the analog chain in every standard CRT projector, and if we take the 909 ill say it might use around 33% of the potential of the moome card.
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Of course that is the way it should be, as it were discussed earlier, putting two bandwidth limited systems together will worsen the overall bandwidth even more. In other words the 909 may have 100MHz BW alone, but with pairing with a moome card that have 300MHz bandwidth, will act as a system of 95MHz bandwidth.
The same thing with a super-CRT projector with 300MHz pure bandwidth paired with the same 300MHz moome card will act up as a 212MHz system. And the sad thing is that there won't be any HDMI 1.4 cards that have better bandwidth than 300MHz... |
And why is that so sad, who do you know that need to resolve a 300Mhz signal.?
Also remember that the tubes and optical path is on the edge as is with 1080P now.
And where do you think the H total will end with a 300Mhz signal to push out raster ringing.?
When i get my test generator ill try see how high the moome card will go with and without buffer.
Justin is the only one i know who is running 1080P 72hz pushing 200Mhz who is resolved very very well.
So what marked is there for 300Mhz + DAC cards.?
You all like the high nr, but most of you are to cheep to buy equipment who will make it possible, and most of you dont have a clue what your looking at.
Merry Cristmas. |
I wasn't saying anything for pursuing 4K, I was just saying that regardless of 4K we always should look for better DACs...
You have to understand that when you speak of 1080p72Hz signal with 200MHz pixel clock, it has to resolve a square wave of 100MHz, that actualy eats more bandwidth than a 200MHz sine signal, that's why you need faster DACs. It's all about the slew-rate, not about whether you want to push it up to 4K.
With an even better DAC Justin might be able to do an even better 1080P-72Hz, remember again that the latest moome card doesn't live up to the better 5-7 years old PC VGA card's bandwidth. |
Did you measure the bandwidth out of the DAC on the latest moome cards.?
And what dac chip would you recommend.?
I dont have a problem with better dacs, but to be realistic, i have seen how they are used, and how most in here talk about different CRT projectors, and if thats considered a good image.. Well moome can just start making the same cards as he did 10 years ago, and most wont notice a difference.
My point is still.. Use the potential of what we have, and target the weakest point in the chain, and there is plenty to target before you need to take another look at the moome DAC.
Also keep in mind what happens when you open up the bandwidth.. Its not always positive. Wonder why most filters the output of the DAC. and on different locations in the analog video chain inside the projectors.
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thewolfman
Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Posts: 1311
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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I think you're asking too much of me. I'm just a simple end user, for porch settings and such.
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| gjaky wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | gjaky wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | The point in this thread is that we have Moome cards for most of the CRT projectors who will outperform the analog chain in every standard CRT projector, and if we take the 909 ill say it might use around 33% of the potential of the moome card.
|
Of course that is the way it should be, as it were discussed earlier, putting two bandwidth limited systems together will worsen the overall bandwidth even more. In other words the 909 may have 100MHz BW alone, but with pairing with a moome card that have 300MHz bandwidth, will act as a system of 95MHz bandwidth.
The same thing with a super-CRT projector with 300MHz pure bandwidth paired with the same 300MHz moome card will act up as a 212MHz system. And the sad thing is that there won't be any HDMI 1.4 cards that have better bandwidth than 300MHz... |
And why is that so sad, who do you know that need to resolve a 300Mhz signal.?
Also remember that the tubes and optical path is on the edge as is with 1080P now.
And where do you think the H total will end with a 300Mhz signal to push out raster ringing.?
When i get my test generator ill try see how high the moome card will go with and without buffer.
Justin is the only one i know who is running 1080P 72hz pushing 200Mhz who is resolved very very well.
So what marked is there for 300Mhz + DAC cards.?
You all like the high nr, but most of you are to cheep to buy equipment who will make it possible, and most of you dont have a clue what your looking at.
Merry Cristmas. |
I wasn't saying anything for pursuing 4K, I was just saying that regardless of 4K we always should look for better DACs...
You have to understand that when you speak of 1080p72Hz signal with 200MHz pixel clock, it has to resolve a square wave of 100MHz, that actualy eats more bandwidth than a 200MHz sine signal, that's why you need faster DACs. It's all about the slew-rate, not about whether you want to push it up to 4K.
With an even better DAC Justin might be able to do an even better 1080P-72Hz, remember again that the latest moome card doesn't live up to the better 5-7 years old PC VGA card's bandwidth. |
I am not sure. If the CRT would really resolve a square wave than we would see pixels. If it resolves only a sinus but with full amplitude white and black than the edges are rounded and that is actual the same as anti alias filtering or upsampling to 4k
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gjaky
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2802
Location: Budapest, Hungary
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| Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| redfox001 wrote: |
I am not sure. If the CRT would really resolve a square wave than we would see pixels. If it resolves only a sinus but with full amplitude white and black than the edges are rounded and that is actual the same as anti alias filtering or upsampling to 4k |
The CRT is doing square wave pixels/lines (as much as it can) in the vertical plane already.
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projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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Yes I was thinking about that so perhaps it makes sense to upscale the lines to 2x1080? But stil the beam is a bright dot surrounded by a cloud so even vertical it is not square?
But I admit I really do not know how exactly focus and bandwidth go together.
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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He just a stupid question in my head. We can do blending that is two images next to each other or stacking and that is two images on top of each other but is it also possible to do interlaced blending? I mean one line form crt1 than one line from crt2.
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cmjohnson
Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s
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| Posted: Sat Dec 27, 2014 2:07 am Post subject: |
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One of the things you really can't do anything about is the scattered light in the CRT phosphor layer, which, combined with the electron beam width AND phosphor grain size limits, sets the real ultimate resolution limit of the CRT itself.
A way to significantly improve the resolution capacity of the CRT would be to build them with fiber optic faceplates, and I have see smaller special purpose CRTs made in such a manner. I would estimate that a 9" projection tube with a fiber optic faceplate would cost 10K more per tube than a standard tube. Fiber optic glass faceplates are NOT cheap. But they would enormously improve the spot contrast and reduce halos to a very low value. Additionally, there would be no residual light ringing within the faceplate glass.
I have calculated that HD10GT17 lenses have sufficient resolving capacity for 4K. They're rated for 12 line pairs per millimeter, and you can measure the CRT's active face size for yourself and do the math. It works out that 4K is about 500 lines per vertical inch, and there are 25.4 millimeters in an inch. Call it 25 for easy math. That's 20 lines (10 line pairs) per millimeter. Just making it.
With a magical new 4K HDMI input card, now all you need is a full 600 MHz bandwidth amplifier system capable of putting out 20 watts on one pixel and then 0.0000000 watts on the very next pixel, 2 nanoseconds later, and then, again put out 20 watts cathode drive the following 2 nanoseconds later. That is a hell of a technical challenge all by itself!
And then you will require precision focusing yokes. I think you'd never get there with the stock Thomson yokes found in a regular Marquee.
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Sat Dec 27, 2014 4:26 am Post subject: |
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I really hope that people order this card because it will be a shame if these permanently go out of production. Without ongoing support from folks like Moome CRT would have been dead a long time ago.
In my opinion, this is really not the correct place to discuss projector bandwidth or the merits of having a 4k HDMI card for Marquee projectors or not. However, since the discussion has been allowed to continue by Kal I must point out that a 4k card would bring a lot more to the table than just 4k. Some examples include HDCP 2.2 compliance, YCbCr 4:2:0 capability, 2kx2k down scaling of 4k, 4k interlaced resolutions, more bandwidth capabilities for 3D to allow for custom timings to further reduce ghosting and provide full 1080p 3D at 96Hz...
But it is a moot point because the Marquee HDMI cards don't sell well enough for Moome to bother so I doubt you will ever see it. It's a shame because years back when I suggested that we needed an HDMI card that supported 1080p 72Hz everyone cried foul and said that 1080p 72Hz was a ridiculous aspiration for CRT because it could not be done.
craigr
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haireez
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 207
Location: singapore
TV/Projector: Vidikron Vision 1 - Ultra
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| Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 2:36 am Post subject: |
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I'm still wondering why Moome did not offer HDMI 1.4 card for Marquee just like Sony & Barco. It would be even better if the card support 3D. Maybe, this would create a better interest to all of us using Marquee / Vidikron projectors.
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