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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 1:30 am Post subject: |
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Thats a very bold statement Kal!!! The highest possible??? Ive heard that before 
At that price ill have to wait and see what others think.
When you say "special preorder price" you mean to say that price will go up???
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Barco Cine 9, ,Sony VPL570ES 4K SXRD, 135" OZ Theatre Majestic 16:9 screen, Denon X6700in preamp mode, 2x 7ch Tonewinner amps, 2x Tonewinner 15" subs, 2x 10" subs, 7.2.6...
RUNCO DTV991 LC ( NEC XG 852 LC ) 100" 4:3 screen, H/K AVR 7.1...
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 2:43 am Post subject: |
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| CasetheCorvetteman wrote: | Thats a very bold statement Kal!!! The highest possible??? Ive heard that before
At that price ill have to wait and see what others think. |
That statement is based on what others think.
Francisco, forum member here with pretty much the highest end Barco available (a SEOS 919 split pack with HFQ900 lenses and colored C-elements, basically a Barco 909 plus Greg E mods) has tried what appears to be every solution including Greg E's custom port 3 card with an integrated 3DFury and he posted here that he prefers Moome's solution. See the official BARCO-FULLHD thread.
I would have tried the card myself (Moome asked me some months ago) on my Cine 8 Onyx as I've tried most solutions too, but I sold it a year and half ago or so. Francisco's 909 is much a much better projector too.
| Quote: | | When you say "special preorder price" you mean to say that price will go up??? |
Yes. This is very common in the consumer electronics industry. Provide a discount for the early adopters. Moome himself has been doing it for years too.
See the BARCO-FULLHD order page for the current pre-order sale pricing and the eventual CurtPalme discounted price that we'll be selling it at once it start shipping.
Kal
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 5:30 am Post subject: |
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Based on the listed specs, the only difference i see there is 4 inputs instead of 2, when compared to the V3 EXT...
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Barco Cine 9, ,Sony VPL570ES 4K SXRD, 135" OZ Theatre Majestic 16:9 screen, Denon X6700in preamp mode, 2x 7ch Tonewinner amps, 2x Tonewinner 15" subs, 2x 10" subs, 7.2.6...
RUNCO DTV991 LC ( NEC XG 852 LC ) 100" 4:3 screen, H/K AVR 7.1...
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ElTopo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1640
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 6:10 am Post subject: |
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Will image quality do a step up vs. EXT V3 ?[/u]
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 7:51 am Post subject: |
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I have more than 1 time offered to test the EXT. V3, and no one seems interested to know how it performs, and insist evaluating it on a CRT projector who wont fully resolve a 75Mhz pixel clock.
Peaking can behave funny, and you might very well get a betyter 1:1 with a worse dac, as noise and filtering can trow around the behavior of the signal when you have as much peaking as in the Barco.
I seen this on the G90, its not the perfect Card who perform the best, it actualy needs more filtering not to make the peaking behave to bad, also the power supply filtering seems to have effect on the image.
So its very well possible that a moome Card with a balanced filter, and low noise just make the Barco look more of what it is.
So dont expect a HDMI Card/DAC to save a verry bad analog video chain.
Im quite sure that the moome Card will deliver the most clean noise free signal from any solution out there, and also the best bandwidth performance.
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 8:24 am Post subject: |
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The specs of the dac is so much higher than what the Barco can do, and i still never seen the Barco do a 720P 60hz right, so pushing a higher bandwidth into the Barco just as well make it look worse.
You need to evaluate this on a monitor who can resolve a signal with a nice headroom, and who dont get trown all around depending on the noise level from the dac.
So i think its fair to say that nobody can evaluate bandwidth performance on anything looking a Barco machine, what you can do is to match components so that you make the best compromise, and thats not = you need the dac with the highest bandwidth.
Your still welcome to send me a Moome EXT V3, and ill tell you where the bandwidth role off, and if it has problems with different porch settings and timings.
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 8:46 am Post subject: |
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Personally I see it this way. Every step in the chain diminishes some bandwidth. The hfa1100 that are used a lot in the Barco all take lets say 0.2 db at 1080p. So having 3 of these does 0.6db. Upgrading to el5166 might give a 0.6db profit. I did that and the picture surely gets a lot better and I do not see any noise at all that disturbs me.
The input has a very sharp bandwidth that goes down to its specs -3db at some bandwidth. Haging the Mik Parker fitlers I think he makes the bandwidth totally flat perhaps even with an external moome.
My guess is that you would win 1 db by having a flat input and because the input is very sharply filtered I don't expect noise problems there.
Than you have the neckboards and there you have the problem why the Barco will not do a full 1080p. You can replace a very bad opamp there but that would require a redesign around another opamp and probable some mini board. I do not know what the singel ended end stage does but the push pull seen in others is probable better so in the end it will not be the best bandwidth even if you solve all these problems.
My external moome was modified to go internal in the 909 so it can not be tested on another machine and I need it because it gives me the best picture sofar  Better than vga and that is not bandwith but the extemely low noise but it has two very custom voltage regulators and I hope the new moome will match that.
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 8:57 am Post subject: |
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But reading back we would have to test if the higher bandwidth at the input introduces more noise. Right now I don't see how but guess I will be a testpilot too Perhaps Francico can say something on this?
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 11:33 am Post subject: |
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| ElTopo wrote: | | Will image quality do a step up vs. EXT V3 ?[/u] |
See this is what i want to know too before i shell out for more than id spend on an item i allready have, and its not that i dont want to believe what Kal says either, but he seems to make no real secret of the fact he doesnt think much of Greg's work, for whatever reason ( ive never seen one given, here or on AVS ), as almost every single time Greg comes here and states a claim, Kal is right on here to argue the point, having owned a Cine 8 Onyx, which isnt even in the ball park of being capable of 1920x1080p without SERIOUS reworking.
Fact is the V3 External MOOME is an obvious draw back to the CineMAX as well as other machines, its been stated by others as well as myself, many have got simular results when testing as i did.
In the .pdf manual for both this new internal and also for the V3 EXT box, the specs appear to me at a glance to be listed as the same, so im just wondering if this is better, how so, and why so?
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Barco Cine 9, ,Sony VPL570ES 4K SXRD, 135" OZ Theatre Majestic 16:9 screen, Denon X6700in preamp mode, 2x 7ch Tonewinner amps, 2x Tonewinner 15" subs, 2x 10" subs, 7.2.6...
RUNCO DTV991 LC ( NEC XG 852 LC ) 100" 4:3 screen, H/K AVR 7.1...
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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Case/ redfox. Ill like to ask you wich one of these 2 moome cards ilustrated below, have the best bandwidth performance?
Only difference on the 2 pictures are the moome card used.
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| CasetheCorvetteman wrote: | | ...its not that i dont want to believe what Kal says either, but he seems to make no real secret of the fact he doesnt think much of Greg's work, for whatever reason ( ive never seen one given, here or on AVS ), as almost every single time Greg comes here and states a claim, Kal is right on here to argue the point, having owned a Cine 8 Onyx, which isnt even in the ball park of being capable of 1920x1080p without SERIOUS reworking. |
Please read all the comments I've ever said about Greg's mods. I (like many others) are not saying that they don't improve the image or that they're not a step in the right direction. What we are always commenting on is how the information is presented. Greg gives hard facts like "a 600% increase in image quality" when nothing is provided to explain where that 600% comes from (for example).
I've never used or seen Greg's mods so I cannot comment at all as to how well they work.
Now back to our regularly scheduled program... 
Kal
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ElTopo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1640
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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2 x Cine 9 in a blend = bandwidth problems solved
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | Case/ redfox. Ill like to ask you wich one of these 2 moome cards ilustrated below, have the best bandwidth performance?
Only difference on the 2 pictures are the moome card used. |
Ok I'll take the bite. The first is the best bandwidth no it is not the moome v3 external is it?
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digitalayon
Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 921
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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Other than blending, is there any real benefit here if you already own a HDFURY? It''s just a signal path and bandwidth change correct?
Last edited by digitalayon on Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | See the BARCO-FULLHD order page for the current pre-order sale pricing and the eventual CurtPalme discounted price that we'll be selling it at once it start shipping.
Kal |
I think 300 bucks is cheap based on what I've paid in the past for moome cards. I remember when $399. was the sale price.
| redfox001 wrote: | | Personally I see it this way. Every step in the chain diminishes some bandwidth. The hfa1100 that are used a lot in the Barco all take lets say 0.2 db at 1080p. So having 3 of these does 0.6db. Upgrading to el5166 might give a 0.6db profit. I did that and the picture surely gets a lot better and I do not see any noise at all that disturbs me. |
That's good information, I didn't know Barco used the 1100 chip.
Electrohome started using the CL449 starting in 1995, Christy, and VDC followed until they quite producing the 449 then VDC switched back to the 1100 again. Does anyone know what year that happened?
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| redfox001 wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | Case/ redfox. Ill like to ask you wich one of these 2 moome cards ilustrated below, have the best bandwidth performance?
Only difference on the 2 pictures are the moome card used. |
Ok I'll take the bite. The first is the best bandwidth no it is not the moome v3 external is it? |
The first pic is from a old SONY moome card, maybe the one with the worse bandwidth i have.
The 2nd pic is the SONY V3 card, one of the best cards made.
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | redfox001 wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | Case/ redfox. Ill like to ask you wich one of these 2 moome cards ilustrated below, have the best bandwidth performance?
Only difference on the 2 pictures are the moome card used. |
Ok I'll take the bite. The first is the best bandwidth no it is not the moome v3 external is it? |
The first pic is from a old SONY moome card, maybe the one with the worse bandwidth i have.
The 2nd pic is the SONY V3 card, one of the best cards made. |
Yes but didn't you have to remove the gamma or so for it to be better bandwidth?
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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| redfox001 wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | redfox001 wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | Case/ redfox. Ill like to ask you wich one of these 2 moome cards ilustrated below, have the best bandwidth performance?
Only difference on the 2 pictures are the moome card used. |
Ok I'll take the bite. The first is the best bandwidth no it is not the moome v3 external is it? |
The first pic is from a old SONY moome card, maybe the one with the worse bandwidth i have.
The 2nd pic is the SONY V3 card, one of the best cards made. |
Yes but didn't you have to remove the gamma or so for it to be better bandwidth? |
The point is that the projector behave better with a lower bandwidth input at the specifik resolution i was running, and that you cant evaluate bandwidth performance of the moome card on a display who is not capable of resolving a very very high bandwidth.
The old moome card pictured dont come near the bandwidth of the new V3 card, and the gamma has nothing to do with it.
So i still wonder how any of you can claim the Ext moome card is the limitation, when we all know that the biggest limitation here is the Barco projector.
There must be some reason that no one have seen a 909 resolve 720P 60hz, without showing peaking distortion, no matter how long and how expensive mods they went true.
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