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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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| CIR Engineering wrote: | | barclay66 wrote: | I agree. The PCB of the 3D Fury has a different layout with the analog output at one side as opposed to the centered output at the HDFury 3.
A solution using a Moome board instead will most likely have a bandwith advantage as severeal tests between Moome boxes and cards vs the HDFury have shown this. Nash was able to show oscilloscope measurements on this in another thread.
Regards,
barclay66 |
Ahem, and let me clear my through.
Those photos Nash (Tom) posted were my photos using my Tektronics 465B analog scope. Nash didn't cite my work or that I took the photos. I pointed that out in the last thread I saw him using my photos without citation. I should have put my logo on the photos. I have scope photos of almost every (maybe every) DVI and HDMI transcoder running 1080i 60, 1080p 60, and 1080p 72; both internal and external versions.
craigr |
TMI! Is "through" a euphemism for going to the restroom? 
I don't remember the other thread, but I remember the first time they were posted and thought they were yours. I doubt Nash had (has) an ulterior motive, but this is why I believe people need credit for their ideas, work, etc. Plagiarism can be to easy on the internet. In my example, Dave (person99) gave me a little grief about the Wilsonart DW laminate being used as a projection screen. I originally did the testing on it and recommended it over at AVS. Clarence bought one, loved it and it took off from there. I explained at the time if you don't speak up then someone else will take the credit. To me, it is ok if the originator doesn't care to be acknowledged, but someone else shouldn't fly in and take the credit.
Back to the OP. Great review. You almost have me regretting getting rid of my 909s.  In all honesty, I am done with my CRT buying. Wasn't someone going to do G90 mods?
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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| CIR Engineering wrote: | | Francisco wrote: | Hi,
Boards that have been modified are:
- RGB Driver
- RGB Switcher
- 2nd RGB Switcher module (Port3)
- 3x RGB amp's (Neck cards)
SMPTE pictures are taken with same camera/lens/settings etc.
I also have a port3 board with internal moome attached directly on it, I will test this one also to see if there is any difference between Greg HDMI solution and the one with moome chip. This is also moome's latest version V3 |
The Moome v3 has excellent bandwidth with less than 5% attenuation at 1080p 60Hz. That would be a good test.
The HDFury 3 has many issues. One of them is that the analog output circuit is kind of crummy. They had some issues with it and so they added peaking in the software that controls the DAC. In the end, what they did was make it so that the SMTPE 1:1 would look perfect at 1080p, but at lower or higher resolutions it's not so good.
The problem with this is that in real world performance test patterns with 1080p 60Hz look nearly perfect, but in the real world there are going to be frequencies required that don't fall in line with the full bandwidth of the signal. I don't know what this means for real world images in reality, but there is quite a bit of artificial "enhancements" used on the HDMI chip.
craigr |
I am reluctant to having a Fury inside  The Cine MAX seems too much a fury already on its own 
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| digitalayon wrote: | check out greg trying to hide his work....sh*t....we tried that with our products and took a company in china to strip all of it withing a day of it arriving. We found certain chemicals to do it without damaging anything. You hear that eisermann....I can hack your sh*t!!!  |
Actually I take offense to this statement... sort of. About once a year someone posts here or emails me wanting information on how to repair something that I've figured out, and then they get all pissy when I won't tell them. Those here long enough have probably read one or two of those posts. 
As with myself, Greg makes his living doing mods and repairs, (ditto for Craig Rounds) and you're damn right we're going to protect ourselves and our time spent figuring out mods and repairs from those that want to pay nothing but the price of parts to do the mods themselves.
Re-engineering a video or audio signal chain isn't rocket science, but you better know your way around circuits. So, if you're that smart and so inclined, go do your own mods. those that want better performance out of their projector, and are willing to pay the price will cough up the bucks and pay for a mod set like this.
Those that simply want to steal someone else's work can go... well... you know..
And seriously, if you want to buy a mod set, and send it to China to find out exactly what was done, well, go right ahead...
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: | TMI! Is "through" a euphemism for going to the restroom?
I don't remember the other thread, but I remember the first time they were posted and thought they were yours. I doubt Nash had (has) an ulterior motive, but this is why I believe people need credit for their ideas, work, etc. Plagiarism can be to easy on the internet. In my example, Dave (person99) gave me a little grief about the Wilsonart DW laminate being used as a projection screen. I originally did the testing on it and recommended it over at AVS. Clarence bought one, loved it and it took off from there. I explained at the time if you don't speak up then someone else will take the credit. To me, it is ok if the originator doesn't care to be acknowledged, but someone else shouldn't fly in and take the credit.
Back to the OP. Great review. You almost have me regretting getting rid of my 909s. In all honesty, I am done with my CRT buying. Wasn't someone going to do G90 mods? |
No, I don't think that Nash (Tom) had any ulterior motive either. He and I are friends and that's why I called him out on it right on the forum and not in private. I do get a little irked though when my work is used without citation and then others that follow don't realize that the work was my contribution.
That's all.
craigr
_________________
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Last edited by CIR Engineering on Sat Apr 05, 2014 3:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | | digitalayon wrote: | | check out greg trying to hide his work....sh*t....we tried that with our products and took a company in china to strip all of it withing a day of it arriving. We found certain chemicals to do it without damaging anything. You hear that eisermann....I can hack your sh*t!!! |
Actually I take offense to this statement... sort of. About once a year someone posts here or emails me wanting information on how to repair something that I've figured out, and then they get all pissy when I won't tell them. Those here long enough have probably read one or two of those posts.
As with myself, Greg makes his living doing mods and repairs, (ditto for Craig Rounds) and you're damn right we're going to protect ourselves and our time spent figuring out mods and repairs from those that want to pay nothing but the price of parts to do the mods themselves.
Re-engineering a video or audio signal chain isn't rocket science, but you better know your way around circuits. So, if you're that smart and so inclined, go do your own mods. those that want better performance out of their projector, and are willing to pay the price will cough up the bucks and pay for a mod set like this.
Those that simply want to steal someone else's work can go... well... you know..
And seriously, if you want to buy a mod set, and send it to China to find out exactly what was done, well, go right ahead... |
I thought the same thing Curt and really felt that was a dickish statement. I decided not to say anything, but your post made me stand up too.
craigr
_________________
JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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I am confused. Is digital saying that they hacked their own products or someone hacked their products or they hacked someone else's products? Only the first one would be acceptable IMO. I would assume one would do that only to design better preventive measures.
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | | digitalayon wrote: | | check out greg trying to hide his work....sh*t....we tried that with our products and took a company in china to strip all of it withing a day of it arriving. We found certain chemicals to do it without damaging anything. You hear that eisermann....I can hack your sh*t!!! |
Actually I take offense to this statement... sort of. About once a year someone posts here or emails me wanting information on how to repair something that I've figured out, and then they get all pissy when I won't tell them. Those here long enough have probably read one or two of those posts.
As with myself, Greg makes his living doing mods and repairs, (ditto for Craig Rounds) and you're damn right we're going to protect ourselves and our time spent figuring out mods and repairs from those that want to pay nothing but the price of parts to do the mods themselves.
Re-engineering a video or audio signal chain isn't rocket science, but you better know your way around circuits. So, if you're that smart and so inclined, go do your own mods. those that want better performance out of their projector, and are willing to pay the price will cough up the bucks and pay for a mod set like this.
Those that simply want to steal someone else's work can go... well... you know..
And seriously, if you want to buy a mod set, and send it to China to find out exactly what was done, well, go right ahead... |
Curt, if he was that smart we wouldntve had to explain to him that his LCD projector has a fixed pixel structure that really cant show 1920x1080, but we did. And he seemed really quite shocked to learn that fact.
There is no reason to be offended. He is of absolutly no threat.
_________________
Barco Cine 9, ,Sony VPL570ES 4K SXRD, 135" OZ Theatre Majestic 16:9 screen, Denon X6700in preamp mode, 2x 7ch Tonewinner amps, 2x Tonewinner 15" subs, 2x 10" subs, 7.2.6...
RUNCO DTV991 LC ( NEC XG 852 LC ) 100" 4:3 screen, H/K AVR 7.1...
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| CIR Engineering wrote: | | redfox001 wrote: | Oh man I am so yealous! Just kidding but good to hear that this improved the picture so much. While reading through the documentation I read that the peaking (in the sync ?) could make more sharpness. Would this board have better sync pulses? Did you experiment with the peaking options in the 919? Perhaps just a stupid question because I think that peaking is automatic selected for high bandwidth.
Is it realy possible to improve on these video out board as well? I mean they are very high bandwith already? When I compare them with the cine 8 (1209) board there are much more pins and a lean design. Anyway what am I talking I don't know what picture they will produce they just look awsome already
Good work! |
Peaking is an interesting topic. The idea behind peaking is to artificially increase the high frequency potions of a signal. This is done in theory because you know that the next circuit in the signal chain will (by nature) decrease the frequency and thus attenuate. If just the right amount of peaking is used, you get a sharp image with nearly flat frequency response. If too much peaking is used you get ringing, or what some people call a ghost image.
The Barco 9" projectors are an interesting case. In terms of bandwidth their signal chain is among the lowest quality of the last generation 9" projectors (Sony Marquee Barco). The funny thing is that Barco 909 is capable of producing an image to a higher frequency than any other projector (they can even run 4k), but the Barco's do so while having the most attenuation of the last 9" generation. So if you compare a Barco SMTPE 1:1 at 1080p 60Hz or higher with Marquee or G90 it will usually look the worst. However, if you increase the resolution the Marquee will no longer be able to sync while the Barco has no problem. Where it gets funny is that the Barco will do it with more and more attenuation as the signal resolution increased. So the image won't actually get any sharper even though the resolution it can reproduce is much higher.
craigr |
Thanks explaining peaking. I just checked and peaking was off. I will try peaking higher to see if it improves high frequency signal.
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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Case, I'm not mad at all, digital and I have done business. I guess in a different way I'm completely guilty of doing the same thing with music, as I save all of the MP3 downloads I find on surplus laptops I get in. While I buy CDs, I won't ever pay for a crappy MP3 download.
So, sort of the same, but different.
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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| gasser wrote: | I have a 809 split pack with the Greg's mods from a year ago. He says he has new mods which are an improvement over last years product. Still have a vertical banding issue on the extreme left. It has 9" tubes with 808s control boards. Very happy with the picture and I've seen the Sony 1000es. I like both, but I like mine better. Never liked any digitals until the new Sony 1000es. I have not seen the 1100es or any true 4K movies on the 1100es. The downside is you need to learn how to adjust the CRT, and it takes time to learn, but once you are there, you are pleased.
I'm going to try out the OPPO 103 or 105 next as my source (currently using a Sony PS3 directly to the projector. |
To reduce the banding on the left, move the image inside the raster to (near) the bottom right corner of the raster instead of in the center. This gives more time for the beam to settle before it must start drawing the image and should help a lot.
craigr
_________________
JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| CIR Engineering wrote: | | barclay66 wrote: | I agree. The PCB of the 3D Fury has a different layout with the analog output at one side as opposed to the centered output at the HDFury 3.
A solution using a Moome board instead will most likely have a bandwith advantage as severeal tests between Moome boxes and cards vs the HDFury have shown this. Nash was able to show oscilloscope measurements on this in another thread.
Regards,
barclay66 |
Ahem, and let me clear my through.
Those photos Nash (Tom) posted were my photos using my Tektronics 465B analog scope. Nash didn't cite my work or that I took the photos. I pointed that out in the last thread I saw him using my photos without citation. I should have put my logo on the photos. I have scope photos of almost every (maybe every) DVI and HDMI transcoder running 1080i 60, 1080p 60, and 1080p 72; both internal and external versions.
craigr |
Ok Fixed !!
here is the original post
http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=330947#330947
| Nashou66 wrote: | Scope pics of HD Fury III and Moome respectively.
EDIT: These were scoped by Craig Rounds of CIR Engineering. The best Calibration expert in the world!! Sorry for not giving you credit buddy.
Fury at 1080p@60
Moome at 1080p@72 !!!
Athanasios |
nashou
_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
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Marquee High Performance Bellows now shipping!!
Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
Marquee C-element and Bellow removal
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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LOL (literally)
craigr
_________________
JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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stridsvognen
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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Is there anyone that have measured the bandwidth of all 3 top 9" machines.? Thinking about the output of the neckboard.?
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gjaky
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2802
Location: Budapest, Hungary
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | Is there anyone that have measured the bandwidth of all 3 top 9" machines.? Thinking about the output of the neckboard.? |
I would think no one did that yet, that is an extremely difficult task. I wanted to measure my XG's and PG xtra's neckboard not long ago, and it wasn't really successfull.
The problem is the CRT amplifier working on the cathode and G1 as the load. They are representing an approx 12pF capacitance as a load. While the output signal is in the 100V range.
For a good measurement you'd need a >300MHz oscilloscope, either with a very good passive probe, but the ideal would be a so called active FET-probe, which is alone a "half scope" price.
I have only 275MHz scope (HP 1720A) with a Tek P6106 250MHz probe and I think I only could measure in the 5ns range the rise time which would equal to 70MHz bw, while you can remember when I posted pics about the 1:1 resolution of my pg xtra, there it clearly looked better.
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projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
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gasser
Joined: 31 May 2012
Posts: 40
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 8:28 pm Post subject: Banding |
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TY Craig.
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | Case, I'm not mad at all, digital and I have done business. I guess in a different way I'm completely guilty of doing the same thing with music, as I save all of the MP3 downloads I find on surplus laptops I get in. While I buy CDs, I won't ever pay for a crappy MP3 download.
So, sort of the same, but different. |
I know youre not mad, but i bet the comment spiked you in a simular way as it did me
_________________
Barco Cine 9, ,Sony VPL570ES 4K SXRD, 135" OZ Theatre Majestic 16:9 screen, Denon X6700in preamp mode, 2x 7ch Tonewinner amps, 2x Tonewinner 15" subs, 2x 10" subs, 7.2.6...
RUNCO DTV991 LC ( NEC XG 852 LC ) 100" 4:3 screen, H/K AVR 7.1...
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km987654
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 2874
Location: Australia
TV/Projector: Barco BG809s
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 5:06 am Post subject: |
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Some Observations
I have one of Gregs port3 cards with the HDMI input (version 9 or 10) and the HDMI card used looks very much like Fury at least in its shape. I also have a moded port 3 card that uses a Moome v3 external board mounted directly to the port three board with a bunch of other board mods to improve bandwidth.
None of the rest of the boards in the set are modified so I am only testing the port 3 input v port 5.
To my eyes Gregs card does a better job at producing a sharper image. The Moome board mounted internally suffers from all sorts of issues probably related to EMF from other components. This not a criticism of the Moome board as it was not designed to be mounted internally. The Moome board does not display the same issues when run externally.
Neither card is better than port 5 for colour depth and without the other cards in the video chain being modified port 5 at 1080p is a better all round choice for me.
So a Port 3 only mod is probably no worth the effort if you were thinking of just doing that.
The above are observations made while watching Blu Ray movies not test patterns.
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2257
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 5:36 am Post subject: |
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These issues might be power related for the internal moome. I noticed rebotes of my cine max using a ps3 on hdmi. I think the internal board toke the machine down at start because detaching the hdmi cable during boot solved the issue.
I notice a power inled on this internal board. Perhaps we have to run the internal boards with external power suply
I will just boot without hdmi and turn the player on later. But it seems these internal solutions are not without problems yet.
Edit: issue has been solved projector needs to be started before source
Last edited by redfox001 on Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:35 am; edited 1 time in total
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