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digitalayon
Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 921
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| Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:19 pm Post subject: Spyder Pro 2 not calibrating right anymore! |
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Anyone know the life of these things? Calibrated and have some saturation going on. Suggestions for replacement......
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HogPilot
Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383
TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD
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| Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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Unfortunately the color filters in calorimeters degrade over time, with the most common culprits being moisture and heat. If you have access to a spectrophotometer like the i1Pro or a specroradiometer like a PhotoResearch PR-670 you can profile your colorimeter to one of those devices so it reads correctly. The caveat is that the profile is only good for the display you used to profile the colorimeter, and the filters will continue to degrade slowly as time goes on.
How much do you find yourself calibrating (how many displays, how often), and what is your replacement budget?
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| ecrabb wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure. |
He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.
SC |
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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digitalayon
Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 921
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| Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:20 am Post subject: |
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| HogPilot wrote: | Unfortunately the color filters in calorimeters degrade over time, with the most common culprits being moisture and heat. If you have access to a spectrophotometer like the i1Pro or a specroradiometer like a PhotoResearch PR-670 you can profile your colorimeter to one of those devices so it reads correctly. The caveat is that the profile is only good for the display you used to profile the colorimeter, and the filters will continue to degrade slowly as time goes on.
How much do you find yourself calibrating (how many displays, how often), and what is your replacement budget? |
i use it for friends, family, work probably 2 times a month. i got it when it was new.
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HogPilot
Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383
TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD
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| Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 4:42 am Post subject: |
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| digitalayon wrote: | | i use it for friends, family, work probably 2 times a month. i got it when it was new. |
How much would you spend on a replacement probe?
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| ecrabb wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure. |
He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.
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digitalayon
Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 921
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| Posted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 3:33 am Post subject: |
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| HogPilot wrote: | | digitalayon wrote: | | i use it for friends, family, work probably 2 times a month. i got it when it was new. |
How much would you spend on a replacement probe? |
good question
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:21 am Post subject: |
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I'm kind of annoyed at having to spend $300 on a piece of hardware that's going to "go bad" in a year or two.
For $129, I can get together with a buddy and rent a SpectraCal kit with a way better meter than I could ever justify buying, calibrate once or twice a year, and never worry about upgrading software, having hardware become obsolete, etc.
http://store.spectracal.com/consumer/rent/c6-calibration-rental-kit.html
I like that they'll rent a kit of something you only need once or twice a year most of the time. Don't quote me on this, but if I remember correctly, ChromaPure not only doesn't rent their stuff, but expressly forbids anyone from renting, loaning, or otherwise sharing… Or something like that.
SC
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digitalayon
Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 921
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| Posted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | I'm kind of annoyed at having to spend $300 on a piece of hardware that's going to "go bad" in a year or two.
For $129, I can get together with a buddy and rent a SpectraCal kit with a way better meter than I could ever justify buying, calibrate once or twice a year, and never worry about upgrading software, having hardware become obsolete, etc.
http://store.spectracal.com/consumer/rent/c6-calibration-rental-kit.html
I like that they'll rent a kit of something you only need once or twice a year most of the time. Don't quote me on this, but if I remember correctly, ChromaPure not only doesn't rent their stuff, but expressly forbids anyone from renting, loaning, or otherwise sharing… Or something like that.
SC |
Crabb,
I think that is software in general. I mean people think when they purchase items like Microsoft Windows that they own it. The fact is they never own it. They sell you a license to use it and that is it. I had an argument with some guy a few weeks ago about this very thing. He said "no, I bought it...therefor I own it and I am going to pout this installation on as many of computers at my business as I want" This guy sells insurance. This guy could not wrap his brain around the fact that Microsoft is the owner. Needless to say it sucks!!!
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| digitalayon wrote: | | ecrabb wrote: | I'm kind of annoyed at having to spend $300 on a piece of hardware that's going to "go bad" in a year or two.
For $129, I can get together with a buddy and rent a SpectraCal kit with a way better meter than I could ever justify buying, calibrate once or twice a year, and never worry about upgrading software, having hardware become obsolete, etc.
http://store.spectracal.com/consumer/rent/c6-calibration-rental-kit.html
I like that they'll rent a kit of something you only need once or twice a year most of the time. Don't quote me on this, but if I remember correctly, ChromaPure not only doesn't rent their stuff, but expressly forbids anyone from renting, loaning, or otherwise sharing… Or something like that.
SC |
Crabb,
I think that is software in general. I mean people think when they purchase items like Microsoft Windows that they own it. The fact is they never own it. They sell you a license to use it and that is it. I had an argument with some guy a few weeks ago about this very thing. He said "no, I bought it...therefor I own it and I am going to pout this installation on as many of computers at my business as I want" This guy sells insurance. This guy could not wrap his brain around the fact that Microsoft is the owner. Needless to say it sucks!!! |
Gewt this for 400 bucks keep the Spyder and profile it to the i1 Pro
http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?ff3=4&pub=5574906687&toolid=10001&campid=5336656890&customid=&mpre=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fitm%2FX-Rite-Eye-One-Pro-i1Pro-Rev-D-Spectrophotometer-Color-Calibration-Device-%2F151239557279%3Fpt%3DLH_DefaultDomain_0%26hash%3Ditem233694809f
This was a 1200 dollar meter new and they never drift.
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VideoGrabber
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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| HogPilot wrote: | | Unfortunately the color filters in calorimeters degrade over time, with the most common culprits being moisture and heat. |
Since this is well known by the manufacturers, and always has been, why don't they provide some way to swap out the filters in the units? Are they not just small sheets of plastic? Yeah, I know it's much more profitable for them if you throw out the entire colorimeter, and buy another one. Rather than replace a piece of plastic that costs a buck or two.
IMO, colorimeters should come with an Expiration Date, applied at the time of manufacture. After all, we have no idea how long they've sat in a warehouse, or on a shelf, moving through the distribution chain. Or what extremes of temp or humidity they've been subjected to, along the way. They could already be degraded when you get one 'brand new'. Each unit should also come with a 'yellow sheet', with instructions on whatever is required to maximize the lifetime of the unit ('hermetically sealed in a mayonnaise jar, stored at 40F', or whatever).
They should also have a 'dosimeter' of some kind, to clearly indicate when the device has gone bad. This could simply be an internal check, which the software would notify you about. Rather than just wondering why some day down the road, you finish a 'cal', and it looks like sh*t, and you're left scratching your head.
Or maybe they could stop using organic filters, that they know degrade over time, and switch to something that doesn't? E.g. glass vs. plastic? Have you ever heard of anyone having to replace their C-elements (color filters), because they 'went bad'?
We should ask Kal what he thinks! He's an expert, and knows everything there is to know about calibrations. That's why Cal is his middle name. No, wait...
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:33 am Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | I'm kind of annoyed at having to spend $300 on a piece of hardware that's going to "go bad" in a year or two.
For $129, I can get together with a buddy and rent a SpectraCal kit with a way better meter than I could ever justify buying, calibrate once or twice a year, and never worry about upgrading software, having hardware become obsolete, etc.
http://store.spectracal.com/consumer/rent/c6-calibration-rental-kit.html
I like that they'll rent a kit of something you only need once or twice a year most of the time. Don't quote me on this, but if I remember correctly, ChromaPure not only doesn't rent their stuff, but expressly forbids anyone from renting, loaning, or otherwise sharing… Or something like that.
SC |
I think that is a great deal. IIRC, Derek told me that if something like this would have been available when he started Spectracal then he wouldn't have bothered.
As for Chroma, I think you need a pro license to rent.
Nash linked to a good deal. I bought an i1 Pro off of ebay for a good price.
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | I like that they'll rent a kit of something you only need once or twice a year most of the time. Don't quote me on this, but if I remember correctly, ChromaPure not only doesn't rent their stuff, but expressly forbids anyone from renting, loaning, or otherwise sharing… Or something like that. |
ChromaPure does not rent directly to users - correct. There's no rules around loaning or sharing however.
You can install ChromaPure on as many computers as you like, including a friend's computer. So two people can (technically) buy the meter and software and share. I don't believe other calibration software sellers allow such flexibility.
The only catch is that licence that you purchased is tied to a specific meter serial number. So you can't (for example) buy ChromaPure with a Display 3 meter and give the software away to 10 friends who then purchase meters separately. This should seem obvious as you can't get the software for free.
SpectraCal renting out to you is completely different from buying the software/meter package and then renting out to someone else for profit. I'm sure they have some sort of usage agreement that forbids you for renting it out like that as does ChromaPure I believe. You can't (for example) buy 10 packages and start a business renting them out for profit.
I'll ask Tom to chime in and confirm.
| VideoGrabber wrote: | | HogPilot wrote: | | Unfortunately the color filters in calorimeters degrade over time, with the most common culprits being moisture and heat. |
Since this is well known by the manufacturers, and always has been, why don't they provide some way to swap out the filters in the units? Are they not just small sheets of plastic? Yeah, I know it's much more profitable for them if you throw out the entire colorimeter, and buy another one. Rather than replace a piece of plastic that costs a buck or two. |
Not sure about this Tim. I'm not sure how consistent the filters are. Ie: Do you need to re-calibrate the meter when replacing the filter?
The other issue may be where and how it's typically located? It may not be an easy thing to do. Or should I say: Given the low price point of the units, adding something that makes filter replacement easy would increase the cost of the unit and people may not be willing to pay the extra when the competition doesn't do it. I don't believe that any of the manufacturers mention filter degration at all, *ANYWHERE* in their product pages.. They won't want to seem inferior to their competitors.
If a ignorant consumer is presented with 2 meters, one of which costs more and has replacement filters available for sale because the manufacturer recommends they be replaced every 12-18 months for best accuracy, and other cheaper one where there's no mention at all that the filters need replacing, guess which one they're going to buy?
Same argument for best before dates. It'll scare away consumers.
It's an interesting discussion. I'm not really sure exactly how the degradation happens. When the Display 3 was first announced, it was thought that it would be better in this regards because of the sealed design. I haven't heard anyone comparing a 2-3 year old Display 3 against something like 2-3 year old Display 2 or Chroma 5 (kept in the same environment) to see if it degraded faster.
Kal
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VideoGrabber
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for chiming in, Kal.
| kal wrote: |
The other issue may be where and how it's typically located? It may not be an easy thing to do. Or should I say: Given the low price point of the units, adding something that makes filter replacement easy would increase the cost of the unit and people may not be willing to pay the extra when the competition doesn't do it. I don't believe that any of the manufacturers mention filter degration [sic] at all, *ANYWHERE* in their product pages.. They won't want to seem inferior to their competitors. |
I'm sure you're correct. However, that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.
| Quote: | | If a ignorant consumer is presented with 2 meters, one of which costs more and has replacement filters available for sale because the manufacturer recommends they be replaced every 12-18 months for best accuracy, and other cheaper one where there's no mention at all that the filters need replacing, guess which one they're going to buy? |
The incrementally more expensive one.  Why? Because there are people like yourself who will educate them that a calibration device isn't something you buy to use for a year or two, then toss and replace. Rather, it's a longer term investment, which even with a higher initial cost and periodic filter replacements will cost much less than the cheapies in the long run.
If lowest cost to ignorant consumers was the primary criteria, then folks would have kept buying Spyders back in the day, instead of switching to EyeOne's, for example.
| Quote: | | Same argument for best before dates. It'll scare away consumers. |
Yes, if your objective is to sell as many disposable units to as many 'ignorant consumers', as fast as you can. Providing them with a dose of reality is a terrible business strategy. 
| Quote: | | It's an interesting discussion. I'm not really sure exactly how the degradation happens. When the Display 3 was first announced, it was thought that it would be better in this regards because of the sealed design. |
Yes, that sounded like a smart idea to me, at the time. Whether it actually panned out or not...? Would be nice to know.
| Quote: | | I haven't heard anyone comparing a 2-3 year old Display 3 against something like 2-3 year old Display 2 or Chroma 5 (kept in the same environment) to see if it degraded faster. |
I haven't either... though I'd like to.
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
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Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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