CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum

[pm]

Guys,

I'm losing the will to keep going with my 1209s so I'm looking for some practical help and local support in the UK if there's anybody out there.. Loads of issues here so bear with me if you can please.....

My mate came around the other night with his bottom of the range Optoma DLP thingy tucked under his arm. We plonked it on top of my 1209s and 30 secs later we are watching a movie.*

To say I was pissed off/depressed/dumbstruck with how good his was for so little money and effort would be a huge understatement. I think he was also laughing at me underneath as well. He's had to listen to me banging on about the virtues of CRT over the years for its contrast and filmic qualities. His was brighter, sharper and seemed to me to have just as much contrast and enough of the mythical filmic qualities we think of as exclusively CRT. I can live with the brightness issue. It is what it is, and I have a bat cave of a room anyway. What I can't accept though is the focus/sharpness issue.

I can hear you all shouting "your 1209s is not set up properly!" And you may be right. And that's where I need some help please.

In no particular order.

Is there anybody in the UK, preferably Hampshire/M3 up to London area with a setup they would be proud to show me how good it can be?

The guy who sold me the machine doesn't seem to be "practicing" anymore. Are there any good techies operating in the UK at the moment?

I use the Nokia Test calibration suite as the only tool I can find at the moment. I find using anything other than the "Selected Source" option is a waste of time. Are there better options out there?





I have real problems getting focus in the corners anywhere near as sharp as the middle. Is it a realistic expectation to have the corners as sharp as the middle? I've been doing mechanical lens focus and Scheimpflug first and then electronic second but still can't get it as sharp.

Is the running order of the "Guided" option in the setup the best order in which to setup?

When starting from scratch, I delete all the blocks and set everything to midpoint. The shape of the blue grid pattern is "different" to the red and green. i.e. skewed and displaced a little more than I would have thought. It's also less focused, even after fine-tuning. Having said that, I can set it up and converge everything to get a very watchable picture without running out of calibration range.

I do however, have problems with left/right linearity and horizontal width. These items do use more of the range than any other but even they are just inside full range adjustments. There is a vertical control for linearity, but no horizontal control??? What am I missing?? The result is that my test pattern circle is perfectly aligned vertically but slightly off centre horizontally. One probably cant notice it, but it annoys me that I can't get it spot on.

On the grid, all up the left hand side the last horizontal box lines have a "wiggle" in them. Again, hard to see, but it's there. It seems to effect all three tubes because it's converged and white! So, presumably a signal problem?



With a combination of video card controls and PJ controls available, I set up the Barco brightness and contrast at 75%, leave it there and then use the video settings with a BBC HD testcard to set the B/C. That seems to work fine, but is there a better way?

I don't notice a difference using the Lamp "overdrive" mode compared to "normal" Is this correct?

Are the G2 and Gamma adjustments relevant to my problems here?

I had a failure some time ago on the PS/Scan switch board and I'm left with burn scars on the blue and green tubes. I therefore need to re-tube at some time. Even the service manual doesn't cover this. Is the info out there? Is it an enthusiastic amateur job? Can one setup the astig rings without specialist equipment?

I'm not frightened of a multimeter and reading circuit diagrams etc. Are there any basic measurements I can make internally to make sure my machine is the best it can be to start with?



If you got this far, thanks for reading!

Don't get me wrong, I want this to work. I don't want a plug and play. I like tinkering. But there has to be a reason, and that reason is quality. And I'd be lying if money didn't come into it too. I also need tubes. I may need outside help that needs paying for as well. But, for the price of some bare second hand tubes that still need fitting, I can go down the shop and buy a well reviewed Optoma HD25e for £700... probably $700 or less stateside.... for £70 extra they will sell me a comprehensive 5 year guarantee. If it survives 5 years, I've had good value out of it. If it doesn't, they'll replace it with whatever the latest equivalent is. And with the speed of progress, the bottom of the range in a few years will be where?


*(As a bit of background, I run exclusively off a server/computer network at home with a combination of bluray iso/W7/PowerDVD and ANYDVD software. That enabled me to drive his Optoma with my laptop at the same time as my own PJ with the same film playing. Hence we could overlay the same film at the same time and make instant comparisons. The 1209s is setup as a second desktop to my PC at 1920x1440 @ 60hz

[ElTopo]

"your 1209s is not set up properly!"

Well your resolution may be too high and that ends in softness of the projected image.

Maybe the tubes are not the best anymore ?!



Why are you using 1920 x 1440 ? Because you have a 4:3 screen ?


What lens type does the 1209 got mounted ? Normal HD-10 or HD-120 ?


ElTopo

[pm]

Hi,

Maybe the tubes aren't the best, but if the runtime is accurate at 11660 hours then I believe they should be ok?

1920x440 because of the 4:3 screen is indeed the answer.

The lenses are HD-120

To be honest, if it can't do 1920 then it has no useful purpose!

Thanks for your interest!

Paul

[ElTopo]

Is you distance right according to the Barco lens program ?

Are you getting a good focus at a lower resolution like 1920 x 1080 ?

[pm]

I used the distance in the program as a starting point and then refined it by using as much raster as i could centred on the tubes and then physically moved the projector to the right distance and alignment in order to minimise any electrical adjustment later. The short answer is, yes! I believe so.

To be honest, I couldn't see what difference 1920x1080 would make? Surely it will just use less phosphor on the face. Same width, just less height... or is there something else?

Cheers,

Paul

[ElTopo]

Less video bandwidth = sharper image


Ever tried it ?

[fragzero]

[pm]

To be honest, no! Intuitively, I didn't think it would make that much difference but now I've looked at some numbers, I'm even more confused!

I found a bandwidth calculator online which suggests that 1920x1080@60hz needs 186MHz bandwidth and 1920x1440@60Hz needs 248MHz....

And the 1209s only has 120MHz available!!

Ooh err, am I interpreting that correctly?

[fragzero]

[pm]

Hi Fraqzero,

Thanks for your input! I have only used the basic offerings from W7 with no frills other than resolution and scan rate. Do you recommend any other program/settings to try?

Is an enthusiastic novice like me going to be able to improve on the mechanical astig already set?

Having refreshed Curt's CRT primer, I acknowledge that I had the wrong info in my head about tube life. I'm pretty sure that they're not the original tubes and that the figure is a chassis run-time, so TBH I think they are still lower hours but obviously well used.

Cheers,

Paul

[fragzero]

When i use my HTPC i set the resolution using http://www.monitortests.com/forum/Thread-Custom-Resolution-Utility-CRU

I'd give myself the enthusiastic novice title and astig is quite hard but it is something you can do yourself!

[ElTopo]

Are you using the internal Barco pattern for setup or patterns from the source ?

You should always use the source for a setup.

What pattern generator or software do you have ?

[ecrabb]

Man, that's some wicked deflection burn.

You said you maximized raster. How maximized? If you've pushed the raster to within a few mm of the edge of the tube, you're never going to get good corner focus - especially on 4:3 resolution. That's the downside to doing the "maximize raster thing". The rationale seems to be since it's the corner, nobody will care, but when I installed my G70 years ago, I backed off a little from the totally maximized raster, and I had excellent corner focus. No, not as sharp as the center, but if the center was 10, then the corners were a 7 or 8.

I get that you have a 4:3 screen, but if you're watching movies on Blu-ray, then you'll never actually need that aspect ratio since BD is 16:9.

If you drop down to 1920x1080, you'll use 2/3 of the bandwidth you're using at 1440p. Or, to think of it another way, the picture should be about 33% shaper than it is now if the softness you're seeing now is due to HF rolloff from exceeding the bandwidth capability of the video chain.

For another bump, you could even drop down to 1920x800 for scope movies like Oblivion… That would cut about 45% of your signal bandwidth away from your 1440p signal.

Tubes are a tough call. Personally, I couldn't bring myself to spend a grand on a couple of tubes when you can buy a damn good digital like a used JVC RS1 or RS2 for similar money. That's totally a personal decision, though. Depends on what kind of hours you put on it, what you watch, etc. It sounds like you like to tinker with CRT, so that puts you in the CRT camp, but OTOH the tubes are going to be really expensive. That's what always kept me from going to a nine-inch. Either I could afford the machine because the tubes were burnt, but not the tubes, or the tubes weren't burnt but I couldn't afford the machine.

SC

[pm]

Loving the feedback guys, thank you!

Eltopo, Yes I'm using the source. I quickly established anything else was a waste of time. I'm using a Nokia program, some of the screen shots are in the original post.

ecrabb, I hear you, and I'm going to try exactly the same! Darkness has descended on the cave, so I'm going to start again.... I'm a glutton for punishment obviously!

The jury is still out on where to spend the money. What's for sure is that if I spend that kind of money on tubes then the results have to be achievable and worth it on the grounds of quality.

[fragzero]

A lot of good tips here

[digitalayon]

Send me your 1209 and I will send you a DLP!

[pm]

[incova]

Hey there,

just some basics here, can you show us pictures of your tubes, if they are worn thats part of your problem, have you done your astig to get your dots sorted out if not you may be getting problems there, be careful when doing this as you can get electrocuted.

Do you have red and green c elements, this made a huge difference to my picture, if you have not get some.

Have you setup your pj to the millimetre? if not you are better of starting again.

What lenses do you have, straight HD10 are ok for corner focus but you need better I would think.

Is your room pitch black, as in when you put the light off you dont see a thing and when the pj is on lights not reflecting onto the screen from surfaces mirrors etc.

SPeaking of what screen have you got, my wall was ok when I started out years ago, my screen is a whole other world.

Is your glycol clean?

Your resolution is too high, go low real low 1024 - 768, have a look see how defined everything is, make that a channel and slowly work up to a resolution where the pj is looking best. Its better to go with a lower resolution that the pj can handle than try a high res where it wont look best.

SPeaking of resolution you can save more bandwidth by running certain movies at 1920 -800 - 60 or so, I forget the term its been a while. This means that you will have a sharper picture on those movies.

Whats your grey scale like show us some pics.

Have you done your G2?

Its late sorry its all over the place but just thinking aloud, good luck!

[pm]

Hi Incova,

Thanks for taking the time to post such a comprehensive reply.

In no particular order.....

I do have screen burn on two tubes due to a board failure, and an obvious 16:9 shadow on the green tube.

Astig seems fine to me. I've downloaded dot patterns from elsewhere on here and they look good to me.

I didn't have c elements....... ...... but I do now! they are still to be fitted though.

Setup geometry.... I think I did have a small misalignment issues which I think I've corrected. It's been difficult to assess any improvement as a result of just the alignment because I've been trying so many other things as well.

Lenses are HD120

The room is a proper bat cave!

Screen is a fixed frame matt white 4:3 80" wide. I'm looking to get a larger 16:9 screen, possibly with a little gain... say 1.3-1.5.

Glycol looks clear to me.

The resolution/bandwidth lesson has been one well learnt thanks to forum members and further reading.

G2 has been done.

Grey scale looks good to me. I've used the AVS setup disc with good results to my eyes.

I have to say, that compared to the point I started from, I've got a very watchable picture now. Colours and contrast still impress with their richness. Our UK domestic TV broadcast in HD and 16:9 are particularly impressive. I'm just left with the nagging knowledge that it could be better and I want it to be the best it can be.

I'll post some pictures up when I get home.

Outstanding issues for me are;

1. Screen burn on two tubes.
2. High hour tubes.
3. Soft corner focus.
4. Having to use large front porch settings to get acceptable left side geometry.
5. Inability to use higher than 50Hz refresh i.e. get the Barco into the "high range".... but then again, would I gain anything as long as I can do 1920x1080@50Hz?

1&2 are about to become history as I've just received a complete set of low hour (<1000hr) P19's with housings and C elements fitted

3. Might be resolved when I ceiling mount the PJ with a larger screen. I understand my current screen is right at the low limit end for the HD120 lenses. That with newer tubes and careful alignment will hopefully help.

4&5. Well, I guess they are what they are... It seems that's how it rolls with the 1209s. It would be good to hear some settings from other 1209s users to see what works for them.

Finally, great to finally find somebody else in Blighty. I work out of West London. Do you still have a CRT setup going?

Pics.... New tubes

[fearn48]

Hi pm,
I have a Runco DTV1100 aka barco 1209s Data. I have upgraded it to a graphics spec, and recently (Christmas) done a complete lineup of a few resolutions. I run mine from a Lumagen scaler, with an hdfury 3.

I have read your thread with interest, as I too have bad focus in the corners, and can't fully resolve 1080p. I also have a couple of other issues relating to picture shutting down, when running 1920x800@72hz. This might be due to the front porch size needed to prevent the scroll/wrap round effect. I will try and post my settings for 1920x1080@48hz, and the 720p120hz that work nicely at the weekend.

I live in Berkshire, so quite close to you.

All the best
Fearn48