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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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It is not labeled wrong.I learned this when I first got the new moome cards over a year ago. If you put up the brightness on the marquee so black is grey and display that pattern with the 0-255 selected you will never see the BTB or the WTW no matter what you do. It even says so in the manual from moome.
So if you want the correct calibration use Button A for 16-235 encoded material. If you want it the way you like then do it as you are. Its all about personal preference for many people.
Nashou
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Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | It is not labeled wrong.I learned this when I first got the new moome cards over a year ago. If you put up the brightness on the marquee so black is grey and display that pattern with the 0-255 selected you will never see the BTB or the WTW no matter what you do. It even says so in the manual from moome.
So if you want the correct calibration use Button A for 16-235 encoded material. If you want it the way you like then do it as you are. Its all about personal preference for many people.
Nashou |
Then i wonder why i dont have any problem getting blacker than black and whiter than white using the 0-255 setting, it will pop up as soon as i adjust the radiance gamma black and white level out.
The Moome dont clip the levels, so i guess the setting is aplyed in the analog section.
I wonder why you get a different result. Thats what i like to solve.. Why are the same projector, same moome card, same VP acting so different.?
And why is it you like to see blacker than black and whiter than white.?
Do you disagree that beeing able to display whiter than white will limit the light/ dynamic of your source material.?
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | I was playing with those selections in my Internal moome, basically the same . But the Black boost kills Black and the 0-255 causes some issues with my TV-ones Edge Blend guides showing up on my screen, but that might be a tv-one issue i think i noticed it before but its not visible from the screen. The best so far for my set up is button A on the remote or the 16-235.
The Contras Adjustment you should not touch. so now what you have to do is put up a full white field and measure the voltage out of the green channel from the moome to .70 volts with gamma turned off, hit the 0 button to shut it off for sure while adjusting it. You may have adjusted the contrast so high your washing out blacks.
Nashou |
Turning counter clockwize turns contrast down, it was way up when i got the MOOME 2nd hand.
Stridsvognen, if i do that and flick DIP1, black changes to dark grey.
_________________
Barco Cine 9, ,Sony VPL570ES 4K SXRD, 135" OZ Theatre Majestic 16:9 screen, Denon X6700in preamp mode, 2x 7ch Tonewinner amps, 2x Tonewinner 15" subs, 2x 10" subs, 7.2.6...
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | I don't want to see BTB. If i did that means I am elevating Blacks. WTW is just inherent of CRT's they can show 109 IRE.
And remember I have the TV-ones and the Moome Mux in my chain. And I am not swapping out cables to test this, its a pain in my ass to do all that swapping and set up a memory in a single marquee 
Nashou |
The testing can be done running direct of a player with a hdmi cable to port 2 in the moome card.
So you are saying that the video white should be displayed about 10% under the maximum output of the projector.?
The 109% thing, has that something to do with the difference from full white screen to a small white window, or how is that defined.
I also use the full white radiance pattern with the WTW and close to white ramp pattern in the center.
I still like to use the full dynamic range of my crt.
What happens when you compensate for your limited dynamic range, by putting contrast up to get your desired light output, measuring it from a test disc.?
Do you let more noise into the signal and push the linearity of the projector.'?
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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I just want it to work as it should!! 
_________________
Barco Cine 9, ,Sony VPL570ES 4K SXRD, 135" OZ Theatre Majestic 16:9 screen, Denon X6700in preamp mode, 2x 7ch Tonewinner amps, 2x Tonewinner 15" subs, 2x 10" subs, 7.2.6...
RUNCO DTV991 LC ( NEC XG 852 LC ) 100" 4:3 screen, H/K AVR 7.1...
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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| CasetheCorvetteman wrote: | | I just want it to work as it should!! |
And the best way of making that happen is to fully understand what goes on.
So far it dont seems much like any of us knows, we need expert help here.
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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Pictures showing that the moome card will still display BTB and WTW when set to 0-255 feeding it a 16-235 signal.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | Pictures showing that the moome card will still display BTB and WTW when set to 0-255 feeding it a 16-235 signal. |
There is no BTB in the 0-255 Color space. 1 is Black( 0 is for TRS or Timing Reference Signals as is 255) there is no -5 -10 etc in the PC color space as there is no WTW because the PC color space has expanded white to 254.
Now the 16-235 color space has BTB and WTW because they left "head room" for those and the same TRS signals. but most studios never use BTB or WTW it is just for a reference point to set video levels of monitors. It is much easier than the older 0-255 method where most just guessed.
So with out the BTB it is difficult to set black or brightness.
Now you state you can see the BTB and WTW with the moome set to 0-255 and sending it 16-235, well yes this is true because they fall into that range....HOWEVER, the binary address of them is not the same. so say 1 in binary form is just for examples sake 01010101 . Now Black in Video level or 16 might be 010100, so it is not at the same address.
There is a formula for conversion to the correct color space and from what I have seen Moome does it correctly.
I know it is confusing because you see the BTB and WTW with the moome set to
0-255 but be aware there might be a slight conversion error. Especially if using a CMS like lumens or the DVDO DUO.
Aslo some HDMI receivers do not allow the 0-255 color space so if toy send it you will never see black as the Receiver will truncate it .
Hope it helps a little, I know WHY we should not mix them but it is hard for me to articulate it correctly.
Athanasios
_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
One Smart Dog!!!
Marquee High Performance Bellows now shipping!!
Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
Marquee C-element and Bellow removal
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 12:14 am Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | It is not labeled wrong.I learned this when I first got the new moome cards over a year ago. If you put up the brightness on the marquee so black is grey and display that pattern with the 0-255 selected you will never see the BTB or the WTW no matter what you do. It even says so in the manual from moome.
Now you state you can see the BTB and WTW with the moome set to 0-255 and sending it 16-235, well yes this is true because they fall into that range....HOWEVER, the binary address of them is not the same. so say 1 in binary form is just for examples sake 01010101 . Now Black in Video level or 16 might be 010100, so it is not at the same address.
Nashou |
Your confusing me now.. You tell me that setting the moome to 0-255 it will never be able to display BTB and WTW, and then you tell me it will.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 12:27 am Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | Nashou66 wrote: | It is not labeled wrong.I learned this when I first got the new moome cards over a year ago. If you put up the brightness on the marquee so black is grey and display that pattern with the 0-255 selected you will never see the BTB or the WTW no matter what you do. It even says so in the manual from moome.
Now you state you can see the BTB and WTW with the moome set to 0-255 and sending it 16-235, well yes this is true because they fall into that range....HOWEVER, the binary address of them is not the same. so say 1 in binary form is just for examples sake 01010101 . Now Black in Video level or 16 might be 010100, so it is not at the same address.
Nashou |
Your confusing me now.. You tell me that setting the moome to 0-255 it will never be able to display BTB and WTW, and then you tell me it will. |
LOl yeah! lol you confused me first. it will show it but there might be differences in the conversion to 16-235.
In original source material encoded in 0-255 there is no BTB or WTW pattern, understand?
So if sending a 0-255 display a 16-235 source it will show BTB and WTW but they might not be in the correct place
for the display device to do any CMS if it has it, like the JVC Digital or the Radiance. it depends on how well they convert form 1 black to 16 black etc. Now the moome i will consider the display device. I believe it does it correctly because it is a simple display with no CMS. Now if you add a CMS capable device like the Lumagen then there might be issues in any conversion even as good as the lumens are. That is what I found out in my Calibration showing the pink 95% .
So after having just played with my own Set up with all the crap I have I think the best way is to set everything to 442
and then put up the lumagen adjustable pattern with the BTB and WTW patterns. raise brightness tip you see BTB and then lower it till it blends in. now do the same for the white, raise white till the WTW is just visible .
I just tried this on my set up and to my surprise I did not wash out black. I raised it to 4 and white went up surprisingly to 18.
I tried it with the moome set to 0-255 and it washed out blacks and I had to lower black level in the XS and it didn't look right to me with video material.
Sorry kurt, my head hurts me too tonight!!
Go get some sleep.
But to the OP post, i will never use the Black Boost in my Moome card.
Nashou
_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
One Smart Dog!!!
Marquee High Performance Bellows now shipping!!
Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
Marquee C-element and Bellow removal
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 12:28 am Post subject: |
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No thats not what he said.
_________________
Barco Cine 9, ,Sony VPL570ES 4K SXRD, 135" OZ Theatre Majestic 16:9 screen, Denon X6700in preamp mode, 2x 7ch Tonewinner amps, 2x Tonewinner 15" subs, 2x 10" subs, 7.2.6...
RUNCO DTV991 LC ( NEC XG 852 LC ) 100" 4:3 screen, H/K AVR 7.1...
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 12:29 am Post subject: |
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No thats not what he said.
_________________
Barco Cine 9, ,Sony VPL570ES 4K SXRD, 135" OZ Theatre Majestic 16:9 screen, Denon X6700in preamp mode, 2x 7ch Tonewinner amps, 2x Tonewinner 15" subs, 2x 10" subs, 7.2.6...
RUNCO DTV991 LC ( NEC XG 852 LC ) 100" 4:3 screen, H/K AVR 7.1...
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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stridsvognen
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 12:37 am Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | Nashou66 wrote: | It is not labeled wrong.I learned this when I first got the new moome cards over a year ago. If you put up the brightness on the marquee so black is grey and display that pattern with the 0-255 selected you will never see the BTB or the WTW no matter what you do. It even says so in the manual from moome.
Now you state you can see the BTB and WTW with the moome set to 0-255 and sending it 16-235, well yes this is true because they fall into that range....HOWEVER, the binary address of them is not the same. so say 1 in binary form is just for examples sake 01010101 . Now Black in Video level or 16 might be 010100, so it is not at the same address.
Nashou |
Your confusing me now.. You tell me that setting the moome to 0-255 it will never be able to display BTB and WTW, and then you tell me it will. |
LOl yeah! lol you confused me first. it will show it but there might be differences in the conversion to 16-235.
In original source material encoded in 0-255 there is no BTB or WTW pattern, understand?
So if sending a 0-255 display a 16-235 source it will show BTB and WTW but they might not be in the correct place
for the display device to do any CMS if it has it, like the JVC Digital or the Radiance. it depends on how well they convert form 1 black to 16 black etc. Now the moome i will consider the display device. I believe it does it correctly because it is a simple display with no CMS. Now if you add a CMS capable device like the Lumagen then there might be issues in any conversion even as good as the lumens are. That is what I found out in my Calibration showing the pink 95% .
So after having just played with my own Set up with all the crap I have I think the best way is to set everything to 442
and then put up the lumagen adjustable pattern with the BTB and WTW patterns. raise brightness tip you see BTB and then lower it till it blends in. now do the same for the white, raise white till the WTW is just visible .
I just tried this on my set up and to my surprise I did not wash out black. I raised it to 4 and white went up surprisingly to 18.
I tried it with the moome set to 0-255 and it washed out blacks and I had to lower black level in the XS and it didn't look right to me with video material.
Sorry kurt, my head hurts me too tonight!!
Go get some sleep.
But to the OP post, i will never use the Black Boost in my Moome card.
Nashou |
LOL.. You are still messing around in the Radiance and digital displays, Im aware what sometimes happens converting levels betwen digital devices, and what 0-255 and 16-235 is.
What im trying to do here is to find out how the moome card handels the levels, and how the end result is on the Marquee.
And i still dont understand how you can display the WTW like you do without loosing dynamic range on your marquee.?
And how you get problems making black right using the 0-255 option.
If you know where the Moome sets the levels, and how it aply to the marquee, i like to know, I have no problem setting the rest of my source, player and different VP.. its straight forward, the isue here is to do the most optimal setup of the moome card, and getting the best end result on the screen.
So to keep it compleetly simple, just think of a BD player with no adjustment options sending 4:2:2 16-235 out, making the best of that using only the marquee and Moome adjustment options.
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 2:33 am Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | | CasetheCorvetteman wrote: | | No thats not what he said. |
I didn't say it or Kurt didn't say it
lol |
You didnt
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Barco Cine 9, ,Sony VPL570ES 4K SXRD, 135" OZ Theatre Majestic 16:9 screen, Denon X6700in preamp mode, 2x 7ch Tonewinner amps, 2x Tonewinner 15" subs, 2x 10" subs, 7.2.6...
RUNCO DTV991 LC ( NEC XG 852 LC ) 100" 4:3 screen, H/K AVR 7.1...
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 5:08 am Post subject: |
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Well ive just been doing some comparing, with the MOOME while setting the flashing bars pattern for black, doesnt matter what i change i can hardly see anything below 15 or 16, with RGB i can see the bars flashing all the way down to 1-2 if i want to.
White is simular again.
The detail via the MOOME in dark scenes is not there, yet blacks are grey. With RGB detail in dark scenes is fine, and black is black.
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Barco Cine 9, ,Sony VPL570ES 4K SXRD, 135" OZ Theatre Majestic 16:9 screen, Denon X6700in preamp mode, 2x 7ch Tonewinner amps, 2x Tonewinner 15" subs, 2x 10" subs, 7.2.6...
RUNCO DTV991 LC ( NEC XG 852 LC ) 100" 4:3 screen, H/K AVR 7.1...
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