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50 ohm vs 75 ohm Connectors
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Z-Photo



Joined: 07 Mar 2006
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Location: Huntsville - Alabama

Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:21 pm    Post subject: 50 ohm vs 75 ohm Connectors

Intersting article:

http://www.extron.com/company/article.aspx?id=demystifyingcables1&tab=technology


Demystifying Cables and Connectors for Digital Formats
Part 1—BNCs, Coax, and SDI
by Steve Somers, Vice President of Engineering
Understanding digital formats and the equipment that delivers them is important to all A/V professionals. My last article explored that topic, but I was reminded that the cables and connectors in any system could make or break its final performance. I've talked about the importance of cable selection before, so let's take a look at how cabling affects those various digital formats.

Table 1.
Recommended Serial Digital (SDI) Transmission Distances through Coaxial Cable


Figure 1. Standard reference level SDI signal
conforming to SMPTE 259M


Figure 2. SDI signal after 100 feet of
Extron Mini-HR coax



Figure 3. SDI Signal after 100 feet of Extron
SHR coax cable


Figure 4. SDI signal after 700 feet of Extron
SHR coax cable


Figure 5. SDI signal after 700 feet of Extron
SHR coax cable



Did You Read the Last ExtroNews?
If you have a copy of the last ExtroNews handy, you might find the table on digital formats helpful for reference. As you scan that table, you'll see that most of the professional broadcast formats (SDI, SDTI, SDTV, and HDTV) are serial and use single coaxial cable with BNC connectors. So that you can't say I ignored the D1 parallel connection. I'm going to effectively skip discussion on it as it is really a short hop connection meant for close-in connected systems. Anytime you are involved with that parallel format, you'll need to look for a specific cable. In this installment, we'll look into details of cables and connectors for the serial digital format. Other formats from the table are the topics for the next article.

Cables and SDI
Cable loss specifications for standard SDI, SDTI, and uncompressed SDTV are addressed in SMPTE 259M and ITU-R BT.601. In these standards, the maximum recommended cable length equals 30 dB loss at one-half the clock frequency. Note that this high loss value does not correlate with losses normally accepted for analog video and graphics signals. This serial digital loss level is acceptable due to the serial digital receiver. Serial digital receivers have special signal recovery processing.

For HD SDI running at 1.5 Gbps, SMPTE 292M governs cable loss calculations. In that standard, maximum cable length equals 20dB loss at one-half the clock frequency. Due to the data coding scheme, the bit rate is effectively the same as the clock frequency in MHz. Similarly, high definition serial digital receivers have special signal recovery capability as well. See Table 1 for some examples of cable length calculations.

Recommendations among cable manufacturers will certainly vary, but it is good practice to limit your run lengths to no more than 90% of the calculated value. This provides leeway for cable variations, connector loss, patching equipment, etc. Table 1 includes this allowance. In all cases, your system must operate solidly before the "cliff region" where sudden signal dropout occurs. Recall that digital systems do not perform linearly to cable losses. Final performance rests with the cable and the type of receiver used. The bottom line in these systems is maintaining low BER (bit error rate). SDI signals are nominally 800 millivolts…not much different in level than analog video signals. Refer to Figure 1 for a standard-level SDI signal that conforms to SMPTE specifications.

What is different about SDI cable loss considerations? With SDI signals, the receiver is more complex in its ability to equalize and recover the signal. Signal recovery is a nonlinear situation. SMPTE 292M describes the minimum capabilities of what it calls a type A receiver (the better) and a type B receiver. Like RF receivers, SDI receivers are adaptive in their ability to amplify, equalize, and filter out the information. Selecting the best receiver will make a tremendous difference in the final performance of a serial digital system. Figure 2 shows the loss effect on an SDI signal after 100 feet of Extron Mini HR cable. Although rise time is significantly affected, all quality receivers can recover this signal. In fact, for this particular cable a class "A" receiver can recover a solid image after 425 feet (see Table 1). Figure 3 illustrates signal quality after 100 feet of Extron super high resolution (SHR) cable. Note that the improved signal waveform ensures that the signal can be conveyed much longer distances. For SHR cable, standard SDI can be transmitted over 1000 feet.

Cable Versus Receiver
So, how much of your system performance depends on the cable and how much depends on the receiver? It's a good idea to know this boundary as receiver and cable specs vary. The primary loss parameters that affect serial digital losses are risetime/falltime degradation and signal jitter. This is why serial digital signals normally undergo reshaping and relocking as they pass through major network hubs like matrix routers. Interestingly, viewing the SDI signal waveform on a scope will not really tell you much once signal level drops to a certain point. Only specific instrumentation made for testing SDI signals will yield the ability to receive a proper image transmission. Figure 4 shows a typical scope presentation after 700 feet of Extron SHR cable.

Although the SDI waveform is not discernable, a good receiver will capture it. By using color enhancement modes on a time domain reflectometer (see Figure 5), you can see a pattern in the data that is somewhat recognizable.

Table 2 provides the performance specifications mandated in SMPTE 259M and SMPTE 292M. This is the benchmark in terms of rise/fall time performance and jitter as it guides the design of equipment sourcing the serial digital signal. Basically, if your system design provided this level of performance after your longest cable run, then you would have a benchmark design with little, if no, concern about the receiver's ability to decode the signal. Any SDI receiver of reasonable design could display the image.


Table 2. SMPTE Serial Digital Performance Specifications



But, we don't live in an ideal world. The economy of distributing SDI and HD SDI lies in the ability of the serial digital receiver to recover a low-level signal much like TV receivers recover a complex television image from a weak RF signal. The extended capability of the serial digital receiver makes the run lengths in Table 1 possible with few exceptions. Just what is the receiver's contribution? Well, comparing the SMPTE loss calculation to the -3dB point used in regular video systems suggests an effect upwards of 10 times; i.e. -30dB compared to -3dB.


Figure 6. Step response comparison for 50-ohm
verses 75-ohm BNC connector in a 75-ohm system


Figure 7. TDR of 50-ohm BNC connector in a
75-ohm system


Figure 8. TDR of 75-ohm BNC connector in a
75-ohm system


Figure 9. TDR of standard VGA connector in a
75-ohm system


Figure 10. Step response of standard VGA
connector in a 75-ohm system



BNC Connectors -
Is There a Difference?
OK, I will not attempt to convince you to use 50-ohm connectors on 75-ohm cable, even though many of us did this for many years. No contest. We all know that proper impedance matching is the right thing to do. The hard truth is that for many years, the only cost effective version available was the 50-ohm BNC. Sure, you could get the 75- ohm type at a premium of 5 to 1. The 50- ohm version dominated because of the RF equipment industry. AMP and many other connector manufacturers were making 50- ohm versions by the millions. The real question is: Does it make any difference to A/V system performance or image quality?

I'm not here to artificially raise the VSWR of your thoughts… we'll let the connectors do that. Why not look at some real measurements and then decide for yourself? We connected our test signal generator (VTG 200) through a twelve-foot length of 75-ohm cable utilizing, in one test, 75-ohm BNC connectors and, in the second test, 50- ohm connectors. The test signal is a step response. The transient response at the leading edge tells us if we will see any anomaly attributable directly to the mismatch. Any serious perturbations here could translate into image artifacts that affect high frequency details in an image. Compare the two waveforms of Figure 6. The yellow waveform illustrates the performance with a 75-ohm BNC connector. The blue waveform represents the 50-ohm situation. You'll see that no difference is visible. This is our experience overall.

Think in 1-D
The actual dimensions of BNC connectors are small enough that we will not see significant effects created by the connector in a system until we approach 3000 MHz (where the connector's physical length approximates one-quarter wavelength of the frequency of interest). Therefore, the reason that BNC impedance mismatch effects are not prevalent in systems we design is that the connector dimension is a miniscule part of the transmission line length at frequencies for which we are primarily interested. In the microwave industry, the connector dimension is significant. Now, refer to Figure 7, which shows the TDR (time domain reflectometry) presentation of a 50-ohm BNC. Compare this to the TDR image of a 75-ohm BNC in Figure 8. These images represent time domain measurements of the same hookup for Figure 5 where a 12-foot length of 75-ohm cable is used. Perturbations seen for either connection impedance center primarily on the connector crimp and contact interface.

Does this mean you can actually ignore coaxial cable impedance in system design? NO. The electrical length of cables is significant at the frequencies we encounter with graphics systems. This is why you see poor performance with some cables. They are not the correct impedance and, therefore, reflect much of the transmitted energy back to the signal source.

VGA Debacle?
Does anyone know the impedance of a 15-pin VGA connector? Ah-Ha! You hadn't thought about that, had you? I can assure you it is NOT exactly 75 ohms, nor is it coaxial. Yet, how many people are concerned about that? My guess is only those that might have an interest in marketing a new connector product. This ubiquitous connector is convenient, low cost, and most importantly, adopted by IBM. So, how does its performance compare (you now ask)? Thanks for asking.

Well, fortunately, it's not a lost cause, but its effect swings in the other direction; i.e., its impedance is as much higher than 75 ohms as the 50-ohm BNC is lower. This means that it's about 100 ohms. Internally, you must take a good 75-ohm cable and split its conductors so as to connect to the parallel pins in the VGA body. Then, after the interface, this parallel connection must return to the cable's symmetrical world. Take a look at the interface anomalies of Figure 9. Again, the primary issue centers on the limited length of the connector interface but does not significantly hamper performance in systems we most often deal with. The step response shown in Figure 10 shows no significant effects, hence the popularity of the VGA connector as a low-cost, general interface for the PC.

Gosh, we had a lot of fun making these pictures. It answered some questions for us and, I hope, for you too. Making good technical decisions in systems design is very important. Hopefully, these examples paint a realistic picture of SDI cabling as well as one of the most nagging little questions in the A/V industry… the BNC question.

(Note: All measurements were taken using an HP83480A Communications Analyzer and an HP54753A TDR Module.



© 2007 Extron Electronics. [/img]

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Person99



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Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:16 pm    Post subject:

Interesting. The step patterns are pretty cool. I've talked to Kim about this a few times as people are always asking for a BNC version and he basically says that you won't be able to tell the difference between the VGA and the BNC and a short breakout is fine.

From looking at this, I'd have to say he is correct.

As I understand it, the impedence of the connectors matters more the longer the distance between them, but at the distances we run, you just can't really tell.

Good stuff.

Kind of reminds me of the old McIntosh demo where their president showed that lamp cord was just as good of speaker cable as the high priced specialty speaker cable.

Dave
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Bruce 09



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Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 9:22 pm    Post subject:

Bump
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Tom.W



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Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 5:27 am    Post subject:

Why ?
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AnalogRocks
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Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 5:34 am    Post subject:

Anything to do with the discussion in MP's thread?
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Tom.W



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Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 5:40 am    Post subject:

What is that all about and which MP thread ?
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ecrabb
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Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 3:06 pm    Post subject:

Tom.W wrote:
What is that all about and which MP thread ?

There was a little disagreement between Walter (WTS) and HKmod over how important 75-ohm connectors really are in our HT systems in MP's HD Fury 2 thread:

My opinion of the HD Fury2...By Mike Parker

I pretty much side with Mike and HKmod. From everything I've ever read (including the Extron paper), with the cable lengths and signals we use, it just isn't critical that everything is 75Ω and perfectly impedance-matched.

Walter's suggestion that no pro equipment had VGA connectors on it was also silly - and not at all correct.

SC


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Mark_A_W



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Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 2:24 am    Post subject:

All can add is not all VGA connector (or DVI to VGA adapters) are the same.

Some cause ringing. Some are fine.

Suck it and see.
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AnalogRocks
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Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 6:43 am    Post subject:

That should read HKmod, Moome doens't sell HDFury2's
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Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 8:10 am    Post subject:

Ooops. I knew that - just mixed up names. Fixed. Delete my quote from your post and nobody will be the wiser. Wink

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Nashou66



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Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 10:31 am    Post subject:

I think even moome would agree on this one SC Wink Its all about what you see. i have the older Moome card but plan on getting the new one's. maybe Mike was comparing to the older ones ? I think craig rounds has said the moome had some issues that he was working on in the Sony card, but they were not too big a deal.

The one issue i noticed in a Moome product is in the MUX not passing the BTB and WTW pattern in the YUV mode from the DVE disc. It might be my older moome VIm-HD not passing it but i did not test connected directly to the Moome Card. I will try this when i return from my trip..... Now I have to admit Mike has me curious on the HD Fury2, I should try this before my DVI splitter to the C2-2250 for the blend and see how it compares tot he MUX, I think I might even forego the HDMI input card, get a pair of RGBHV cables from the TV-One units to the marquee's.

I would like to see an A/B comparison done though, if I buy a HD Fury2 i might send ot to WTS to test if he wants, all just to settle this once and for all... maybe the find will push Moome further to improve his products.

Athanasios

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mp20748



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Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 10:42 am    Post subject:

Nashou66 wrote:


I would like to see an A/B comparison done though, if I buy a HD Fury2 i might send ot to WTS to test if he wants, all just to settle this once and for all... maybe the find will push Moome further to improve his products.

Athanasios



I have two of the very latest Moome Marquee cards... And I'm sure one of the reasons WTS was not taking up on his offer had more to do with him not being able to test or evaluate the Fury2 at it's rated 1080P resolution.

In no way would a Barco Cine 8 make for the best testing of The Fury2, it's not True 1080P capable.


On a TRUE 1080P projector, the difference is HUGE.

.
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Nashou66



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Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 11:04 am    Post subject:

So mike for the blend set up like mine where I will not be using the full 1080p more along the lines of 1164x800p at up to 96hz possibly(only tried if briefly) would there be a difference? With the older moome Vim i am using I do think i see some distortion in the vertical portion of the SMPTE one on one off pattern, Almost like a vertical version of the famous marquee banding. Would this be the BW limitations of the lower bit rate chips in Moomes first HDMI card vs the newr card or do you think his new card would give me the same issues?

id love to try the HDfury2 but It would only be used once before the splitter and therefore only be passing 1080p@24.... I think I should not use a HDMI card in the marquee and just use the RGBHV inputs with the Fury or MUX before the VP's

Athanasios

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mp20748



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Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 11:20 am    Post subject:

Nashou66 wrote:
So mike for the blend set up like mine where I will not be using the full 1080p more along the lines of 1164x800p at up to 96hz possibly(only tried if briefly) would there be a difference? With the older moome Vim i am using I do think i see some distortion in the vertical portion of the SMPTE one on one off pattern, Almost like a vertical version of the famous marquee banding. Would this be the BW limitations of the lower bit rate chips in Moomes first HDMI card vs the newr card or do you think his new card would give me the same issues?

id love to try the HDfury2 but It would only be used once before the splitter and therefore only be passing 1080p@24.... I think I should not use a HDMI card in the marquee and just use the RGBHV inputs with the Fury or MUX before the VP's

Athanasios


For blending or any other large screen display, you'd want the absolute best devices in the video chain. At the lower rates, the Moome cards may do well. I don't don't know much about the cards at the lower rates, and It's not something I have any interest in. But based on what I'm seeing with the Fury2, I'm sure it also does extremely well at the lower rates.



I plan to head out to Middleburg (Williams Blend) with his two latest Moome cards. We'll more likely compare those two cards to his two previous version of the cards. And we hope to also do shoot-outs with the two matching Marquees showing the difference between the Fury2, Moome1 and Moome2 cards.

So the BEST testing for these cards should happen in a side by side setup like what we have planned for this weekend.




My Marquee 9500LC Ultra is a power house of a projector TRULY capable of properly resolving 1920x1080P @ 72hz. So it's RAZOR sharp at 1080P /60hz...


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WTS



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Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 1:13 pm    Post subject:

I think if you reread the thread I was simply stating that the VGA connector wasn't a 75ohm connector and that it wasn't giving a true 75Z match. Man some of you guys need to read Rolling Eyes

Oh and nice article too, look at the TDR of the VGA, not very nice, but the step response looks okay.

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WTS



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Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 1:28 pm    Post subject:

HI Mike,

Like you said I'm using a Cine8 onyx (Zenith 1200) and most 8"ers aren't very good at 1080P. Even though I have modded the video boards to the 9s, I haven't really played around much with 1080P.

I have also read that some people feel the PS3, which I use, is way too soft when you see them on a big screen with a decent PJ. I believe one post I read was from a guy who had the Lumix or something like that, some 30K or 40K digital PJ. So it may be time to get a new Bluray machine, maybe the new Oppo.

It will be interesting to hear your results from the Fury2 vs Moomes. I don't know which Moome version you have or even what if any changes Moome has made since the one I have. I have made some changes/mods to the version(1.3) I have because I wasn't happy with some of the design. Not to mention that I have it mounted and wired directly to the main RGB board in my Zenith 1200 and yes I used small diameter teflon 75Z coax cable with very short runs with larger wattage load Rs etc.

Some of you may not think I know what I'm doing but thats okay by me.

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mp20748



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Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 1:54 pm    Post subject:

WTS wrote:


It will be interesting to hear your results from the Fury2 vs Moomes. I don't know which Moome version you have or even what if any changes Moome has made since the one I have. I have made some changes/mods to the version(1.3) I have because I wasn't happy with some of the design. Not to mention that I have it mounted and wired directly to the main RGB board in my Zenith 1200 and yes I used small diameter teflon 75Z coax cable with very short runs with larger wattage load Rs etc.



I have the very latest Moome Marquee slot boards, which are the 1.3's (dual HDMI inputs). And we will be also using the version before that one that had the component transcoder.

The newer version HDMI card has triple (three separate) DACs. Those DAC's feed directly into the reconstruction network, and from there into the 8 pin SOIC buffers.

The previous version was OK, but did better with a few tweaks, especially a bit better decoupling. The newer version has much better board design and DC filtering/decoupling. I've not really looked into Modding it or improving it. My hope was to only by-pass the gamma and contrast circuits, because they should not be used with the blend setup. Having gamma and contrast at each projector would make the blending and matching of the two projectors more complicated. So I would want those features removed.



The Fury2 needs nothing!

It's actually the only device that I could not find a shortcoming in. It actully pisses me off a bit that I can't claim doing anything to it to make it better..Mad


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Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 1:56 pm    Post subject:

Nashou66 wrote:
I would like to see an A/B comparison done though, if I buy a HD Fury2 i might send ot to WTS to test if he wants, all just to settle this once and for all... maybe the find will push Moome further to improve his products.

That would be hard to do because (from what I understand) Walter's never had a stock Moome product - he always highly mod's them. So a comparison would be somewhat pointless since nobody can buy "his" version of the Moome EXT-FULLHD.

EDIT - oops - seems Walter already chimed in about this.

Kal

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Nashou66



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Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 4:16 pm    Post subject:

Mike isn't the gamma and contrast circuit on the new moome card an add on board that can be taken off like the older card? I thought on the old card you can take it off and itss gone?

EDIT: just looked at the Pic of the new VIM-HD and it does not have the add on board like the previous model.

So it looks like I might just use the MUX HD and go RGBHV out from the TV-Ones.


Athanasios

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mp20748



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Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 5:35 pm    Post subject:

WTS wrote:
I don't know which Moome version you have or even what if any changes Moome has made since the one I have. I have made some changes/mods to the version(1.3) I have because I wasn't happy with some of the design


I forgot to comment specifically on this. Not sure what you mean here, version 1.3 should be his latest. And based on what you've also indicated, you most likely have the external device you're working with. And my understanding is that the external is not that much different from the internal unless I'm misinformed.

Let me be clear here. The only problem I've had with the later version Marquee Moome card was when doing 1080P. This may not even be a problem for most who have the card, but for me, and since I'm a 1080P buff, it did not do as well as the Fury2.

Other than the 1080P problem, his card is very well designed. He as well has done an excellent job in component placement, to include, making things so much better over his previous HDMI version. Not sure what you found to be a problem on these boards, but If you don't evaluate them at their higher rates, there's no real way of knowing what it really does, because it's only at the higher rates that these particular digital circuits show their flaws.

In this case, the later Moome card held up exceptionally well at 1080P - and that should be the rule to determine the design quality.


A lot of attention went into that design. And I would give him two thumbs up in that regard.




now, concerning making changes or doing mods to the boards. These devices are about 98% digital. And that small analog section of the boards that you could be referring, there's really nothing there to address, unless again, you're going after 1080P. The only areas of concern in the analog world of the card would be the buffer section, which is simply an Op amp. My understanding is, he uses either a 100Mhz chip or a 1500mhz chip. Either one of those would do fine either way. plus, he has done a very good job on the buffer chips rails. He's even added bypass caps (tants) on each of the op amps.

The changes that i made to the previous HDMI was remove the transcoder section from being connected to the output of that card. That and a few other things, that's coupling related. On this later card, that has all be done.


When modifying or making changes to designs like this, we are either tweaking it to our personal setup, or we're fixing something that was broke in the beginning.

Not sure why i was having a problem with 1080P, but I can assure you that whatever the problem is, it's not because the card did not get the proper attention in design. Moome may have over-looked 1080P altogether when he was tuning the software.

Just my opinion! or .02 cent
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