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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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Remember to take some before and after mod screenshots of the 1:1 pixel pattern, so we can se how it resolves 1080P 60-72hz.
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Diddern
Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:44 am Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | Remember to take some before and after mod screenshots of the 1:1 pixel pattern, so we can se how it resolves 1080P 60-72hz. |
I will, but after what I have seen earlier, there is small improvements in my eyes. But if its better you also maybe see it in some photos.
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:22 am Post subject: |
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| Diddern wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | Remember to take some before and after mod screenshots of the 1:1 pixel pattern, so we can se how it resolves 1080P 60-72hz. |
I will, but after what I have seen earlier, there is small improvements in my eyes. But if its better you also maybe see it in some photos. |
To prove improvements on crt, you need some hardcore facts, there is to manư setup dependent parameters, that makes it quite hard to tell with a screenshot, if the mod is improving, or its just a better setup machine.
The bandwidth is very important to CRT, and so is the noise level.
Its a bit more complex than comparing 2 digital projectors.
So i think the best way to document something is test patterns, and then different resolutions, framerates, see how well it focus and resolves different patterns.
But you need to do a identical test before and after modding on the same machine.
Improvements over the last test will not be so hard, that can be done removing the darbee, and making a better grayscale calibration.
With the amount of money put in this project, i think you need to try compete with the MP high bandwidth mod on the Marquee, and do some of the same patterns.
Then if you have proven to fully resolve 1080P 60hz, then you can do movie screenshots..
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Diddern
Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:34 am Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | Diddern wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | Remember to take some before and after mod screenshots of the 1:1 pixel pattern, so we can se how it resolves 1080P 60-72hz. |
I will, but after what I have seen earlier, there is small improvements in my eyes. But if its better you also maybe see it in some photos. |
To prove improvements on crt, you need some hardcore facts, there is to manư setup dependent parameters, that makes it quite hard to tell with a screenshot, if the mod is improving, or its just a better setup machine.
The bandwidth is very important to CRT, and so is the noise level.
Its a bit more complex than comparing 2 digital projectors.
So i think the best way to document something is test patterns, and then different resolutions, framerates, see how well it focus and resolves different patterns.
But you need to do a identical test before and after modding on the same machine.
Improvements over the last test will not be so hard, that can be done removing the darbee, and making a better grayscale calibration.
With the amount of money put in this project, i think you need to try compete with the MP high bandwidth mod on the Marquee, and do some of the same patterns.
Then if you have proven to fully resolve 1080P 60hz, then you can do movie screenshots.. |
For me I will see what it does to the visible picture quality in movie and difficult pictures. The screenshots will not prove much, but just give a indication. And clearly 1:1 pixel pattern and different 1080P material to see the improvements.
But for me I still think and can say for shore that there will be small total improvements. Its been said 30% sharpness improvements in new tubes and much on the new mods. The fact is something else I am shore, but do not say this with total confident before I see it.
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:41 am Post subject: |
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| Diddern wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | Diddern wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | Remember to take some before and after mod screenshots of the 1:1 pixel pattern, so we can se how it resolves 1080P 60-72hz. |
I will, but after what I have seen earlier, there is small improvements in my eyes. But if its better you also maybe see it in some photos. |
To prove improvements on crt, you need some hardcore facts, there is to manư setup dependent parameters, that makes it quite hard to tell with a screenshot, if the mod is improving, or its just a better setup machine.
The bandwidth is very important to CRT, and so is the noise level.
Its a bit more complex than comparing 2 digital projectors.
So i think the best way to document something is test patterns, and then different resolutions, framerates, see how well it focus and resolves different patterns.
But you need to do a identical test before and after modding on the same machine.
Improvements over the last test will not be so hard, that can be done removing the darbee, and making a better grayscale calibration.
With the amount of money put in this project, i think you need to try compete with the MP high bandwidth mod on the Marquee, and do some of the same patterns.
Then if you have proven to fully resolve 1080P 60hz, then you can do movie screenshots.. |
For me I will see what it does to the visible picture quality in movie and difficult pictures. The screenshots will not prove much, but just give a indication. And clearly 1:1 pixel pattern and different 1080P material to see the improvements.
But for me I still think and can say for shore that there will be small total improvements. Its been said 30% sharpness improvements in new tubes and much on the new mods. The fact is something else I am shore, but do not say this with total confident before I see it. |
So what you are saying is that you wil do a step by step upgrade.. one board at the time, and then the tubes, so you can see what makes the difference.?
Or will it just be a mess of everything and nobody know what did what.?
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Diddern
Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | Diddern wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | Diddern wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | Remember to take some before and after mod screenshots of the 1:1 pixel pattern, so we can se how it resolves 1080P 60-72hz. |
I will, but after what I have seen earlier, there is small improvements in my eyes. But if its better you also maybe see it in some photos. |
To prove improvements on crt, you need some hardcore facts, there is to manư setup dependent parameters, that makes it quite hard to tell with a screenshot, if the mod is improving, or its just a better setup machine.
The bandwidth is very important to CRT, and so is the noise level.
Its a bit more complex than comparing 2 digital projectors.
So i think the best way to document something is test patterns, and then different resolutions, framerates, see how well it focus and resolves different patterns.
But you need to do a identical test before and after modding on the same machine.
Improvements over the last test will not be so hard, that can be done removing the darbee, and making a better grayscale calibration.
With the amount of money put in this project, i think you need to try compete with the MP high bandwidth mod on the Marquee, and do some of the same patterns.
Then if you have proven to fully resolve 1080P 60hz, then you can do movie screenshots.. |
For me I will see what it does to the visible picture quality in movie and difficult pictures. The screenshots will not prove much, but just give a indication. And clearly 1:1 pixel pattern and different 1080P material to see the improvements.
But for me I still think and can say for shore that there will be small total improvements. Its been said 30% sharpness improvements in new tubes and much on the new mods. The fact is something else I am shore, but do not say this with total confident before I see it. |
So what you are saying is that you wil do a step by step upgrade.. one board at the time, and then the tubes, so you can see what makes the difference.?
Or will it just be a mess of everything and nobody know what did what.? |
No mess, just facts  The most difficult factor here is the size of the projector hehe.
And I will do what you ask for
Very similar to the other test I did, but more photos of test images also. Then side by side.
One with all mods and the new grade tubes side by side with a good 100% original.
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Diddern wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | Diddern wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | Diddern wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | Remember to take some before and after mod screenshots of the 1:1 pixel pattern, so we can se how it resolves 1080P 60-72hz. |
I will, but after what I have seen earlier, there is small improvements in my eyes. But if its better you also maybe see it in some photos. |
To prove improvements on crt, you need some hardcore facts, there is to manư setup dependent parameters, that makes it quite hard to tell with a screenshot, if the mod is improving, or its just a better setup machine.
The bandwidth is very important to CRT, and so is the noise level.
Its a bit more complex than comparing 2 digital projectors.
So i think the best way to document something is test patterns, and then different resolutions, framerates, see how well it focus and resolves different patterns.
But you need to do a identical test before and after modding on the same machine.
Improvements over the last test will not be so hard, that can be done removing the darbee, and making a better grayscale calibration.
With the amount of money put in this project, i think you need to try compete with the MP high bandwidth mod on the Marquee, and do some of the same patterns.
Then if you have proven to fully resolve 1080P 60hz, then you can do movie screenshots.. |
For me I will see what it does to the visible picture quality in movie and difficult pictures. The screenshots will not prove much, but just give a indication. And clearly 1:1 pixel pattern and different 1080P material to see the improvements.
But for me I still think and can say for shore that there will be small total improvements. Its been said 30% sharpness improvements in new tubes and much on the new mods. The fact is something else I am shore, but do not say this with total confident before I see it. |
So what you are saying is that you wil do a step by step upgrade.. one board at the time, and then the tubes, so you can see what makes the difference.?
Or will it just be a mess of everything and nobody know what did what.? |
No mess, just facts The most difficult factor here is the slice of the projector hehe
And I will do what you ask for
Very similar to the other test I did, but more photos of test images also. Then side by side.
One with all mods and the new grade tubes side by side with a good 100% original. |
I dont think it makes gives much meaning what your trying to do. You cant compare 2 old CRT projectors like that, i doubt you will be able to find 2 identical performing Barco machines at all.
You need to focus on the machine you are upgrading, one step at the time.
And spend some time with each cange to be aware of good and baad results who comes with the mod.
If i had to do a test like that i would start with the machine intended to mod in standard trim, and make it as perfect setup as posible.. and calibrated.
Run some test patterns, document its performance, finish with some screen shots..
Then you can install one board, and start all over.. calibrate and stuff.. see it that board made changes to the performance, and so on untill you finished all the mods.
The other way you will never know what you are messing with, you might even ende up with a worse result than the start point.
The tubes have to be the last thing you change, and need to be compared against new standard tubes to be able to tell if they are any improvement.
A good idea would also be pictures of all the parts moddet, and a description of whats done and what its expected to change, maybe together with documentation from the one that did the mod.
Pictures, scope measurements and so on.
If you cant do that, i just think you leave readers more confused than before, and the last test, and screenshots you made of a barco, just proved that some should never get involved with CRT projectors.
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Diddern
Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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Frist i will not do any adjustments , I leave that to the prows. everything will be done with the best guys in Norway as I know to do this.
I come when the fully modded is finished. The original one is dam good and will not be touched.
And I think that the moded one will be better. If not it's point less to do modding and getting new tubes on a CRT for home cinema.
You do not watch test images you watch film don't you😉.
If you cant see god difference why then Bother. Fun to adjust or fun to watch movie?
The guys that do all the adjustments are extremely CRT lovers and love this so much that they do not see anything else better than a CRT.
And they are the best here in Norway after what I've seen. But we will see.
The only frustration will be for new CRT users why bother if little difference.
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Diddern
Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | Remember to take some before and after mod screenshots of the 1:1 pixel pattern, so we can se how it resolves 1080P 60-72hz. |
Picture 1920x1080 60Hz
Pictures are downscaled...
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gjaky
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2802
Location: Budapest, Hungary
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| Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Diddern wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | Remember to take some before and after mod screenshots of the 1:1 pixel pattern, so we can se how it resolves 1080P 60-72hz. |
Picture 1920x1080 60Hz
Pictures are downscaled... |
The focus is better, but the bandwidth is still crap...
_________________
projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB, VIM-DB
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| gjaky wrote: | | Diddern wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | Remember to take some before and after mod screenshots of the 1:1 pixel pattern, so we can se how it resolves 1080P 60-72hz. |
Picture 1920x1080 60Hz
Pictures are downscaled... |
The focus is better, but the bandwidth is still crap... |
+1
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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At least it looks better than a standard 9" CRT projector captured with a IPAD.
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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At least it looks better than a standard 9" CRT projector captured with a IPAD. Right.?
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Diddern
Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | At least it looks better than a standard 9" CRT projector captured with a IPAD. Right.? |
Clearly better bandwitch on the marquee. As the pictures show.
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Diddern
Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | At least it looks better than a standard 9" CRT projector captured with a IPAD. Right.? |
What do you feel about sharpness from the picture?
It's a 8 inch
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Diddern wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | At least it looks better than a standard 9" CRT projector captured with a IPAD. Right.? |
Clearly better bandwitch on the marquee. As the pictures show. |
I have a VIM with peaking trimpots, who are adjusted to match the horisontal level, the Barco looks to have much much more peaking without getting cloce to get a decent vertical level, it also looks like it skips the first vertical line, and role off the last 2 vertical lines.. no idea what goes on there.
Last edited by stridsvognen on Sun Dec 22, 2013 5:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Diddern wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | At least it looks better than a standard 9" CRT projector captured with a IPAD. Right.? |
What do you feel about sharpness from the picture?
It's a 8 inch |
As you have told me before screenshots are useless.
But it looks like your picture capture the sharpness much better than mine, your horisontal lines look more like what i see on the screen than what my pictures display.
I dont like to coment on sharpness on your screenshots, i see some of them have lots of edge ringing like there is some sharpness addet in the camera or wherever it come from.
I must say i would expect more if its LUG tubes used.
I also have no clue what light output you got, or other calibration data.
I just know that the Marquee looks quite soft in standard trim.
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Diddern
Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | Diddern wrote: | | stridsvognen wrote: | | At least it looks better than a standard 9" CRT projector captured with a IPAD. Right.? |
What do you feel about sharpness from the picture?
It's a 8 inch |
As you have told me before screenshots are useless.
But it looks like your picture capture the sharpness much better than mine, your horisontal lines look more like what i see on the screen than what my pictures display.
I dont like to coment on sharpness on your screenshots, i see some of them have lots of edge ringing like there is some sharpness addet in the camera or wherever it come from.
I must say i would expect more if its LUG tubes used.
I also have no clue what light output you got, or other calibration data.
I just know that the Marquee looks quite soft in standard trim. |
right about the pictures just indication.
and pictures downscaled to fit this forum
but like i said better bandw. on your picture, like your photo show.
better sharpness and better blacks on the 808. but again pictures.
maybe different in real.
If you compare a original 808 in real its enormous differences.
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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Could be fun if someone with a 808 with HD 144 lenses, and a good adjusted focus would post a picture.
It it AC or LC the moddet 808.?
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Diddern
Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | Could be fun if someone with a 808 with HD 144 lenses, and a good adjusted focus would post a picture.
It it AC or LC the moddet 808.? |
Lc, and i agree with you.
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