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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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The shot below is showing for the best part the top two pattern groups of the SMPTE pattern. The pattern shown is almost fully resolved. Because there is only a slight darkness in the left top pattern group, the darkness represent bandwidth roll-off, or the display device's inability to PROPERLY resolve the full bandwidth.
Because the camera and distortions that can come from either camera or optics, it's always best to do this test using one of the three colors. Preferably GREEN (first) or RED.
For CRT, there would only be a problem with the camera capturing the focus properly when going with one color only. It's an entirely different thing capturing a digital display.
This is one of my older test patterns, before i was able to achieve the full bandwidth. I'm using it to show what it looks like to almost resolve the bandwidth.
Full 1920X1080P /60hz
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Francisco wrote: | | Quote: | | I can turn the question.. Whats the reason to all those nice features if you dont have bandwidth to resolve the signal.? |
You can turn it in anything you like 
But if Barco made all these fine features they forgot the right bandwidth on a $ 80.000,- projector you think?
I must say you know a lot about CRT technology, and more then I know about bandwidth, but when do you use higher bandwidth? Only on full 1080p@72hz? or do you use some "special porch timings"? I mean 1080P can easily be resolved by a Barco 909 with 180mhz end stages and a retrace time of 1.1us
Scan Frequencies Horizontal: 30-180
kHz autolock
Vertical: 37-240
Hz autolock
Minimal Retrace Time Horizontal:
< 1.1 μs in range 90-180
kHz
< 1.8 μs in range 30-130
kHz
(switching point adjustable between 90 and 130 kHz)
Vertical:
< 200 μs
blooming starts around contrast 95% screen gain 1.2 |
And what is measured light on screen..?
The problem is that the BARCO 909 only have around 100Mhz Bandwith.. The 180 is paper specs, and its shown very well from your screenshots.
Try look at bandwidth as rise and fall time, and forget about resolution.
So to your question.. Yes BARCO forgot, or was not able to make the high bandwidth at that time.
Ant to defende BARCO.. No one made a 180Mhz capable CRT projector.
What im told is that the Marquee is the one with the highest bandwidth measured, around 130Mhz standard.
So what i hear is that the Barco and the SONY have better focus systems, and LUG tubes, making them sharper,
And the Marquee a better video chain.. but worse focus. And kind of random performance from factory.
So at that pont its hard to call any of them perfect for the purpose we use them for.. No matter the hype or price tag.
So we depend on someone making these machines able to perform better in one way or another if we need to get closer to display 1080P correct.
I think the main problem with the 909 is the price tag.. making owners expect more, or have a hard time beliving its not perfect.
Marquee 9500 comes dirt cheep, and everyone know it takes some work to make them perform.. And happy when it happens.
Justin.. I have a Canon Camera.. But its broken.. Or i broke it trying to fix the USB port..
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ElTopo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1640
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| Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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@Francisco: Your screenshot looks amazing ! Excellent focus.
Even if the 909 might not have 180MHz on bandwidth image is still extraordinary.
_________________
Barco Cine 9 the one and only
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135
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| Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: |
And what is measured light on screen..?
The problem is that the BARCO 909 only have around 100Mhz Bandwith.. The 180 is paper specs, and its shown very well from your screenshots.
Try look at bandwidth as rise and fall time, and forget about resolution.
So to your question.. Yes BARCO forgot, or was not able to make the high bandwidth at that time.
Ant to defende BARCO.. No one made a 180Mhz capable CRT projector.
What im told is that the Marquee is the one with the highest bandwidth measured, around 130Mhz standard.
So what i hear is that the Barco and the SONY have better focus systems, and LUG tubes, making them sharper,
And the Marquee a better video chain.. but worse focus. And kind of random performance from factory.
So at that pont its hard to call any of them perfect for the purpose we use them for.. No matter the hype or price tag.
So we depend on someone making these machines able to perform better in one way or another if we need to get closer to display 1080P correct.
I think the main problem with the 909 is the price tag.. making owners expect more, or have a hard time beliving its not perfect.
Marquee 9500 comes dirt cheep, and everyone know it takes some work to make them perform.. And happy when it happens.
Justin.. I have a Canon Camera.. But its broken.. Or i broke it trying to fix the USB port..
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LOL..that's what happens when you are up till 4am trying to fix stuff; you end up breaking things instead 
The savior of the Marquee is the video chain and that is why you put up with everything else. In stock form the Marquee has a lot of issues that make it less desirable than a G90 or 909 but with proper upgrades and component replacement it goes beyond the capability of the other two.
_________________
Projector: Modded 9501LC ULtra- MP VIM, Vold VNB, ETECH LVPS, Silver VIM Cables, HD10F's & a V1 case!
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Diddern
Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | The shot below is showing for the best part the top two pattern groups of the SMPTE pattern. The pattern shown is almost fully resolved. Because there is only a slight darkness in the left top pattern group, the darkness represent bandwidth roll-off, or the display device's inability to PROPERLY resolve the full bandwidth.
Because the camera and distortions that can come from either camera or optics, it's always best to do this test using one of the three colors. Preferably GREEN (first) or RED.
For CRT, there would only be a problem with the camera capturing the focus properly when going with one color only. It's an entirely different thing capturing a digital display.
This is one of my older test patterns, before i was able to achieve the full bandwidth. I'm using it to show what it looks like to almost resolve the bandwidth.
Full 1920X1080P /60hz
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For me this looks very nice.
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Diddern
Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| ElTopo wrote: | @Francisco: Your screenshot looks amazing ! Excellent focus.
Even if the 909 might not have 180MHz on bandwidth image is still extraordinary. |
I know it is. 
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Francisco
Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 305
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | | Francisco wrote: | | Quote: | | I can turn the question.. Whats the reason to all those nice features if you dont have bandwidth to resolve the signal.? |
You can turn it in anything you like
But if Barco made all these fine features they forgot the right bandwidth on a $ 80.000,- projector you think?
I must say you know a lot about CRT technology, and more then I know about bandwidth, but when do you use higher bandwidth? Only on full 1080p@72hz? or do you use some "special porch timings"? I mean 1080P can easily be resolved by a Barco 909 with 180mhz end stages and a retrace time of 1.1us
Scan Frequencies Horizontal: 30-180
kHz autolock
Vertical: 37-240
Hz autolock
Minimal Retrace Time Horizontal:
< 1.1 μs in range 90-180
kHz
< 1.8 μs in range 30-130
kHz
(switching point adjustable between 90 and 130 kHz)
Vertical:
< 200 μs
blooming starts around contrast 95% screen gain 1.2 |
And what is measured light on screen..?
The problem is that the BARCO 909 only have around 100Mhz Bandwith.. The 180 is paper specs, and its shown very well from your screenshots.
Try look at bandwidth as rise and fall time, and forget about resolution.
So to your question.. Yes BARCO forgot, or was not able to make the high bandwidth at that time.
Ant to defende BARCO.. No one made a 180Mhz capable CRT projector.
What im told is that the Marquee is the one with the highest bandwidth measured, around 130Mhz standard.
So what i hear is that the Barco and the SONY have better focus systems, and LUG tubes, making them sharper,
And the Marquee a better video chain.. but worse focus. And kind of random performance from factory.
So at that pont its hard to call any of them perfect for the purpose we use them for.. No matter the hype or price tag.
So we depend on someone making these machines able to perform better in one way or another if we need to get closer to display 1080P correct.
I think the main problem with the 909 is the price tag.. making owners expect more, or have a hard time beliving its not perfect.
Marquee 9500 comes dirt cheep, and everyone know it takes some work to make them perform.. And happy when it happens.
Justin.. I have a Canon Camera.. But its broken.. Or i broke it trying to fix the USB port..
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Maybe you and mike are right about bandwidth and video chain of Barco in general. And within a few weeks I will get a modded video chain with hdmi port3 with direct attached moome v3 and we will test again. Although I still doubt it if it will be a hugh difference in total picture quality.
I measure about 12ftl
@mike parker I know you worked on barco 909 to improve them what is your experince with it and what can be changed ?
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Philips vacuum cleaner | Trystar double toaster | Car radio with orange plastic memory arrows | Class A Fridge
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Francisco
Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 305
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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Another question Kurt, does your Crystalio II handle the higher bandwidth and pixelclock of 1080p@72hz ?
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Philips vacuum cleaner | Trystar double toaster | Car radio with orange plastic memory arrows | Class A Fridge
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ElTopo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1640
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| Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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@Francisco: 12fL ? What screen you have in use ? Contrast and Brightness settings of your 919 ?
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Barco Cine 9 the one and only
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ElTopo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1640
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Francisco wrote: | | Another question Kurt, does your Crystalio II handle the higher bandwidth and pixelclock of 1080p@72hz ? |
No.. Its limited to 165Mhz. Just like most VP Both digital and analog out.
It have a nice feature making a output like 1920x800P and just selecting pixel perfect, and then it crops the input source and do pixel mapping perfect. At any output and input signal. Much much more simple than the radiance.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Francisco wrote: |
@mike parker I know you worked on barco 909 to improve them what is your experince with it and what can be changed ? |
This is something I had mentioned in this thread earlier (or a similar on this forum). I had also spoke to Curt about trying a few things to address a circuit in the 909 that really restricts the bandwidth. But no one seemed interested..
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Francisco
Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 305
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 7:34 am Post subject: |
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Well I'm interested to know what can be done. And I think there are more users who want to try some modifications. But for a long time and still is, the Barco's are far more expensive then Marquee. Also not so much sold or installed in the US I think. Maybe therefore the interest is lower. I know a few people here in Europe and also worldwide who would be interested.
The only thing is it has to be serious and well sustained with FACTS of improvement, not just scattering around how good it is and better then digital etc etc.
Also here in Holland most 909 or Cine9 users know the story of Peter and his 909 and the boards you would have mod for him….(you know where I'm talking about)
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Philips vacuum cleaner | Trystar double toaster | Car radio with orange plastic memory arrows | Class A Fridge
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 8:19 am Post subject: |
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| mp20748 wrote: | | Francisco wrote: |
@mike parker I know you worked on barco 909 to improve them what is your experince with it and what can be changed ? |
This is something I had mentioned in this thread earlier (or a similar on this forum). I had also spoke to Curt about trying a few things to address a circuit in the 909 that really restricts the bandwidth. But no one seemed interested.. |
I am, but I didn't actually see it, I am usually looking at this via my phone, so I don't always read every post, sometimes this has moved 2 or 3 pages between visits!!
_________________
Barco Cine 9, ,Sony VPL570ES 4K SXRD, 135" OZ Theatre Majestic 16:9 screen, Denon X6700in preamp mode, 2x 7ch Tonewinner amps, 2x Tonewinner 15" subs, 2x 10" subs, 7.2.6...
RUNCO DTV991 LC ( NEC XG 852 LC ) 100" 4:3 screen, H/K AVR 7.1...
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| Francisco wrote: | | The only thing is it has to be serious and well sustained with FACTS of improvement, not just scattering around how good it is and better then digital etc etc |
Not sure why you're saying this. I only offered to someone that I could suggest some changes to some areas of the 909 that would improve on its bandwidth issue. You then post that these changes would have to be sustained by facts of improvement, and should not be about boasting or comparisons.
First let me say I had no intent on doing this myself, and if what I posted was not clear, it would be changes recommended to areas of the 909 that I know for sure is a weak area. Now for anyone wanting to try this, it would first have to be someone I feel would be make the best of of it, and therefore would not risk damage to their own set.
Second, what would my recommendation have to do with a digital projector?
| Quote: | | Also here in Holland most 909 or Cine9 users know the story of Peter and his 909 and the boards you would have mod for him….(you know where I'm talking about) |
Yes, I remember Peter well. He was the guy who agreed to be the first to try the 909 Mods I was talking about offering at the time (and one who encouraged me to do it). And during that time, he also made it very public by saying he's agreeing to be the first to try out the mods. Because I also made it clear I was doing them from a Barco 808 chassis. Also, and because I did not have a 909 chassis, there were some problems we later found out, with the main one being one of the video boards in the 808 was not compatible with what goes into the 909. Peter was later made aware of that. And so that you're also know, there is always some risk in making these changes when you don't have the chassis, and that is why I don't offer mods for anything I can't support. But since Peter, I have had bunches of 909 chassis, but chose to not get back into me offering mods for them. To now me not having one, nor would I want to have one.
But a better question would be could I pull it off, or would I know what MAY need to be done.....I don't feel I need to answer that. But at the same time make it clear that modifying any Barco is not something I have ANY interest in doing. I get asked about doing something for the 909 all the time, and my post was an answer to what I'm always being asked.
So don't worry, you will not have me to deal with if you own a 909 or any other Barco CRT projector.
Marquee and Sony G90, now both of them I have successfully taking to another level, to even doing something the manufacturer failed to do in its specs. but much like the success of the first airplane, there were some mistakes and crashes along the way. Innovation always has risk..
Oh, I forgot to mention that I had already perfected the Barco mods, both 808 and 909. But chose instead to get rid of my 808 chassis and everything I had Barco 909
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 9:48 am Post subject: |
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Your name and reputation proceed you all over the internet Mike, there has yet to be a negative statement agaisnt you, and that is reason enough for me to firmly believe in your work, whatever you choose that to be.
_________________
Barco Cine 9, ,Sony VPL570ES 4K SXRD, 135" OZ Theatre Majestic 16:9 screen, Denon X6700in preamp mode, 2x 7ch Tonewinner amps, 2x Tonewinner 15" subs, 2x 10" subs, 7.2.6...
RUNCO DTV991 LC ( NEC XG 852 LC ) 100" 4:3 screen, H/K AVR 7.1...
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Francisco
Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 305
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 9:59 am Post subject: |
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Mike, thank you for your clearing answer, much appreciated.
| Quote: | | Not sure why you're saying this. I only offered to someone that I could suggest some changes to some areas of the 909 that would improve on its bandwidth issue. You then post that these changes would have to be sustained by facts of improvement, and should not be about boasting or comparisons. |
I'm saying this because Greg states that his modifications make such an improvement that it will be better then a VW1000 I think most people like to see or hear more comparisons before they decide to buy a modification from him.
Has it also something to do that Greg makes modifications for Barco that you don't? Like a gentleman's agreement that you don't fish in the same pond?
| Quote: | | Second, what would my recommendation have to do with a digital projector? |
Nothing!
| Quote: | | But at the same time make it clear that modifying any Barco is not something I have ANY interest in doing. I get asked about doing something for the 909 all the time, and my post was an answer to what I'm always being asked. |
Can you tell me why you don't have any interest in doing? I mean it will bring new business, and if you already perfected the Barco mods then that's a shame that it all gets lost 
You are doing it for Marquee and Sony and I think a lot of CRT fanboys  are very pleased with it. It would be nice if Barco owners could join the club.
Now I have a spare set of boards so it will not affect my working set right now.
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 10:00 am Post subject: |
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I have been buying some mods from Mike for the Marquee.
I have never had any problems no matter what, if there have been any performance isues, they have been solved, Mike have been very helpfull supporting, and helping me understand more about the Marquee than i would ever dream about.
I think its quite hard for us mortals to compleetly understand what Mike is douing, and why, so its very important to hold a open mind to things that might not look logic to start with, but playing with mike is for sure a huge adventure.
The improvements are huge to,, and im not even started yet.. I just sit here with the feeling that the end of this will be mind blowing.
Im dreaming about 300Mhz.. LUG tubes and HD10E lenses trowing flames..
About the buisness thing, i think Mike is more into this of interest than money.. I feel he is spending a crazy amount of time and parts trying to bum up every part of the marquee.. If that time have to be paied for, im sure he will need the prices to be higher than the barco mods.. ( Dont do that mike Mike Marquee owners are poor people..)
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 10:08 am Post subject: |
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| Francisco wrote: |
Can you tell me why you don't have any interest in doing? I mean it will bring new business, and if you already perfected the Barco mods then that's a shame that it all gets lost
You are doing it for Marquee and Sony and I think a lot of CRT fanboys are very pleased with it. It would be nice if Barco owners could join the club.
Now I have a spare set of boards so it will not affect my working set right now. |
doing mods is a very difficult thing to do, to include, to get to a place of really making a difference you would have to invest thousands of hours. Those hours are fatiguing and costly. And because I've been so determined, I usually put myself in a bind.
Doing Barco mods is not something I could do, because I don't have the chassis. But what I was suggesting that for anyone who is good technically, I'll willing to pass on what I know, in hopes of making available improvements to the Barco much like what we're able to achieve with the Marquee.
And for this, I'm not looking for a dime. And if someone else wanted to offer the mods, that would be fine with me.
Thanks for your understanding Francisco
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 10:15 am Post subject: |
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If what is in the works comes off here Mike, time permitting, i will be willing to do some mods on my equipment under your guidance, although before i will try this i will have at least one complete spare working machine, which could happen soon.
_________________
Barco Cine 9, ,Sony VPL570ES 4K SXRD, 135" OZ Theatre Majestic 16:9 screen, Denon X6700in preamp mode, 2x 7ch Tonewinner amps, 2x Tonewinner 15" subs, 2x 10" subs, 7.2.6...
RUNCO DTV991 LC ( NEC XG 852 LC ) 100" 4:3 screen, H/K AVR 7.1...
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