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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135
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| Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| geisemann wrote: | I know many folks get upset about trying to improve the old BARCO design and think its snake oil or bull. I am doing this more of a hobby now than a business so not trying to make a lot doing it.
I can fully respect that the end user really enjoy's their units like you would enjoy a old LP or old radio with a little static. They prefer the film-like quality of a picture but with new HD content these people are not the norm anymore. The mainstream folks who contact me want a sharp sharp unit with the contrast only a CRT can produce. No unit to date has provided the same contrast a CRT has in all modes of operation . CRT for simulation is still the norm and just been rated by the Air force as the best response. My military customer use CRT for flight simulators because they have to keep processing delay to a min. No digital has instant stick to screen response like a crt. A person who is serious about simulation always keeps a CRT for the most demanding pilots. Even hardcore gamers today use old CRT monitors over LCD flat screens.
Many people who did my mod set and I have made hundreds and hundreds buy now complained about the sharpness they preferred the older picture. One guy was Allen Gouger of AVS stated he wanted me to add a sharpness control to his HDMI board to make the picture more film like. So I made custom card just for him. However I have been focused on resolution of late and this my new goal to make the CRT as sharp as possible while removing the noise associated with new high BW circuits.
With the HD getting better and digital projectors getting better we have to squeeze every last ounce of BULL out of the unit as possible and I wont give a percentage however I can assure you a min of 4 times the BW and that is easy on a electronics design compared to a satellite where BW is massive on RF amps. Barco had a back end of 400 MHZ with the cine 9 not very good even for a audio amp. When many high end audio amps use a tube preamps there is a reason because they had a very high BW input stage. The reason is tubes have very little input capacitance.
However the fact is the design is quite old the opamps and other components were to cut corners for manufacturing. The simple interconnect cables between the RGB amp and RGB switcher has over 40PF of capacitance on a 1209 or Cine9. Any RF engineer or audio engineer will tell you at high frequency 1080P will tell you 40PF will easily bring down your BW.
I am a satellite RF engineer and work with high BW components all the time and many many many changes can be made. Just the cost is the issue and rework is very time consuming. The real limiting factor I can see from this point however is the components as things are made cheaper high end op-amps especially single channel needed for high BW are no longer being produced so you have to get creative. The consumer is getting cheaper and cheaper when it comes to consumer electronics and the components are too.
I hope that helps.
GREG
www.eisemann-theater.com |
Greg you edited your response but you mentioned intially that changing the interconnect cables would be a considerable improvement. I thought that was pretty good advice as the 909's weakness has always been bandwith. Do you have a particular cable you would recommend?
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Projector: Modded 9501LC ULtra- MP VIM, Vold VNB, ETECH LVPS, Silver VIM Cables, HD10F's & a V1 case!
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| jbmeyer13 wrote: | | geisemann wrote: | I know many folks get upset about trying to improve the old BARCO design and think its snake oil or bull. I am doing this more of a hobby now than a business so not trying to make a lot doing it.
I can fully respect that the end user really enjoy's their units like you would enjoy a old LP or old radio with a little static. They prefer the film-like quality of a picture but with new HD content these people are not the norm anymore. The mainstream folks who contact me want a sharp sharp unit with the contrast only a CRT can produce. No unit to date has provided the same contrast a CRT has in all modes of operation . CRT for simulation is still the norm and just been rated by the Air force as the best response. My military customer use CRT for flight simulators because they have to keep processing delay to a min. No digital has instant stick to screen response like a crt. A person who is serious about simulation always keeps a CRT for the most demanding pilots. Even hardcore gamers today use old CRT monitors over LCD flat screens.
Many people who did my mod set and I have made hundreds and hundreds buy now complained about the sharpness they preferred the older picture. One guy was Allen Gouger of AVS stated he wanted me to add a sharpness control to his HDMI board to make the picture more film like. So I made custom card just for him. However I have been focused on resolution of late and this my new goal to make the CRT as sharp as possible while removing the noise associated with new high BW circuits.
With the HD getting better and digital projectors getting better we have to squeeze every last ounce of BULL out of the unit as possible and I wont give a percentage however I can assure you a min of 4 times the BW and that is easy on a electronics design compared to a satellite where BW is massive on RF amps. Barco had a back end of 400 MHZ with the cine 9 not very good even for a audio amp. When many high end audio amps use a tube preamps there is a reason because they had a very high BW input stage. The reason is tubes have very little input capacitance.
However the fact is the design is quite old the opamps and other components were to cut corners for manufacturing. The simple interconnect cables between the RGB amp and RGB switcher has over 40PF of capacitance on a 1209 or Cine9. Any RF engineer or audio engineer will tell you at high frequency 1080P will tell you 40PF will easily bring down your BW.
I am a satellite RF engineer and work with high BW components all the time and many many many changes can be made. Just the cost is the issue and rework is very time consuming. The real limiting factor I can see from this point however is the components as things are made cheaper high end op-amps especially single channel needed for high BW are no longer being produced so you have to get creative. The consumer is getting cheaper and cheaper when it comes to consumer electronics and the components are too.
I hope that helps.
GREG
www.eisemann-theater.com |
Greg you edited your response but you mentioned intially that changing the interconnect cables would be a considerable improvement. I thought that was pretty good advice as the 909's weakness has always been bandwith. Do you have a particular cable you would recommend? |
Any with a lower capacitance.
nashou
_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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A lot of people do not care about specifics unless they want to start a bickering match.
Don't get me wrong digital is getting better and better but for some CRT is a hobby and those who treat it as a hobby like to see how far they can push it regardless of cost. Sure they can do it by getting a digital but what fun and challenge is that?
If Greg helps them get the best out of an old technology that the large manufactures abandoned then I think it is a great thing.
Just like in Audio, some like a certain sound others don't same goes here for CRT, I prefer a slightly soft image over the razor sharpness that cuts my cornea out 
This type of bashing here is why we lost a few good members who contributed a lot of tech info. Being attacked
by many who just want to get their egos boosted does no good for this forum. And I am not talking about the political thread bashing.
Athanasios
_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
One Smart Dog!!!
Marquee High Performance Bellows now shipping!!
Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
Marquee C-element and Bellow removal
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geisemann
Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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I contacted Allen G about the new people at AVS so he is going to have a talk with them about removing posts that are a good discussion. He is no longer involved with day to day operations and he was a good person to have on the CRT form.
I am working on the new mods now to send to a couple of people for testing. The new parts are just arriving from Mouser to my shop in the next few days. So will get the users to perform a detailed write up and we can post on AVS and here but it may take a few weeks. I am just going what my end users tell me from emails about the VW1000 and a Mod Cine 9 . The end user was in Germany and he said when he has time will post some details. I dont have time to test every digital against a CRT. So I just get feedback via email.
http://www.eisemann-theater.com/index.php?option=displaypage&Itemid=78&op=page&SubMenu=
I attached a report we wrote to our military users to talk about how CRT is superior to Digital for simulation and home theater I hope this helps some and it will provide some incite.
I hope that helps
Greg
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Simulation Projector_Selection_with_prices V1.docx |
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km987654
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 2874
Location: Australia
TV/Projector: Barco BG809s
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| Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | A lot of people do not care about specifics unless they want to start a bickering match.
Don't get me wrong digital is getting better and better but for some CRT is a hobby and those who treat it as a hobby like to see how far they can push it regardless of cost. Sure they can do it by getting a digital but what fun and challenge is that?
If Greg helps them get the best out of an old technology that the large manufactures abandoned then I think it is a great thing.
Just like in Audio, some like a certain sound others don't same goes here for CRT, I prefer a slightly soft image over the razor sharpness that cuts my cornea out
This type of bashing here is why we lost a few good members who contributed a lot of tech info. Being attacked
by many who just want to get their egos boosted does no good for this forum. And I am not talking about the political thread bashing.
Athanasios |
Exactly 
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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| km987654 wrote: | | Nashou66 wrote: | A lot of people do not care about specifics unless they want to start a bickering match.
Don't get me wrong digital is getting better and better but for some CRT is a hobby and those who treat it as a hobby like to see how far they can push it regardless of cost. Sure they can do it by getting a digital but what fun and challenge is that?
If Greg helps them get the best out of an old technology that the large manufactures abandoned then I think it is a great thing.
Just like in Audio, some like a certain sound others don't same goes here for CRT, I prefer a slightly soft image over the razor sharpness that cuts my cornea out
This type of bashing here is why we lost a few good members who contributed a lot of tech info. Being attacked
by many who just want to get their egos boosted does no good for this forum. And I am not talking about the political thread bashing.
Athanasios |
Exactly |
Exactly exactly.
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | I tried to keep my opinion out of this thread but I have to mention a few things here.
I don't think Greg will want this closed this time. I converse with Greg from time to time and he is Very helpful and knowledgeable about Barcos but has helped me with some Marquee things along the way. His EE background working and building communication satellites gives him an edge in High BW applications.
MadMrH is another person who i also talked to and he is a barco guy. I asked him about Greg's work and he said it is a definite visible and measurable improvement over a stock Barco. This was back when Andy was more frequent contributer to the forums. But I trust Andy so him endorsing Greg's work on his own Barco and his customers is all I need. Now with Case getting his mods we will know for sure what the improvements are.
I think most here have an issue with how Greg quantifies his claims by using % improvement which a difficult think to measure
with objective viewing.
Athanasios |
Its all true Nash
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HogPilot
Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383
TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD
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| Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 6:52 am Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | Greg,
I don't think anyone is arguing that your mods don't make a difference. It's the claims you're making that people want want more information on.
For example, the whole point of this thread (one you started if I may remind you) is your initial comment:
| Quote: | We just completed a customers CRT with our new mods and Simulation grade CRT tubes. The user had a shot out war with a new Sony VW1000ES
The Barco Cine 9 won with new simulation tubes and mods! |
So tell us more. Where's the writeup of this Cine 9 vs. VW1000 shootout? How did it win?
The only information about this anyone could find was here in this AVS thread that has now been deleted:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1491224/eisemann-theater-simulation-grade-tubes-have-a-better-picture-than-an-vw1000es
In that thread the only comment was from the VW1000 owner and he said the CRT only won in very dark scenes. So quite the opposite of what you're stating.
You also posted a bunch of links, none of which have anything to do with this contest.
Jask summed it up well:
| Quote: | Posting a bunch of links to your site and 5 year old posts on another forum, with no content related to the thread subject contributes nothing to your claim.
I did get to read the post from the digital owner- since he was not the one who was impressed could you post a link to the person who was? What test were performed? benchmarks used? I have no doubt your tubes are great, but how about some real objective numbers instead of hype? |
Kal |
I think Kal hit the nail on the head. I'm still curious about the original post, notably the portion bolded above. I still haven't seen anything here that would support that statement, outside of the typical motion blur/absolute black advantage that CRT can have over LCoS, which is certainly nothing new.
I'm also curious as to who the "users" are in the report that you attached above Greg - are you referring to the pilots flying the sim, or the simulator maintainers? Most simulators - both on the civilian and military side - that I've used have switched to LCoS (I haven't seen DLP or LCD, most likely for contrast reasons), and as someone who has to use them regularly, I have always preferred the LCoS-driven images for their higher resolution and lack of softness. If one were doing BFM or ACM where motion blur could become a factor, I could see CRT being useful.
Regarding black levels and night simulation, whenever I'm on a night flight, I'm always interested at how much ambient light is present both in and outside of the cockpit. Whether that be from stars, planets, the moon, or especially man-made light, there's few times where it's completely pitch black outside, and I've yet to see a night sky that was absolutely black, even with a significant overcast. And of course there's always cockpit lighting, which, even when dimmed to uselessly low levels, will always negate the need for absolute black reproduction in a display. It's even worse in the sim, where the operator station provides an extra source of light pollution.
_________________
| ecrabb wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure. |
He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.
SC |
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mx83toy
Joined: 14 Dec 2012
Posts: 322
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| Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:01 am Post subject: |
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Agreed... I just wanted to see the crt kick butt on the digital 
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HogPilot
Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383
TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD
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| Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:50 am Post subject: |
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I just don't see how such an apples-to-oranges comparison could be done objectively. Like I said, we already know which of the units will be superior in terms of resolution, sharpness, light output, black level, shadow detail, motion resolution, noise floor (i.e. fan noise), and ease of setup. One is capable of displaying 4K, one is not. No real surprise here.
Depending on the viewing distances, screen size, and type of material fed to each unit, it would be easy to sway the average preference of a given audience in one direction or another. The fact that the two parties disagreed on which image they preferred is simply a validation that they've chosen a display technology that they find more pleasing overall. No real surprise there either.
I don't doubt for a second that Greg's upgrades offer real performance gains for CRT users; however that's worlds apart from being able to say that the modded Barco "won" a side-by-side shootout with a VW1000.
_________________
| ecrabb wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure. |
He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.
SC |
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:28 am Post subject: |
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When i get the mods done and everything set up as best i can get it, i will attempt 2160i to see how well it can be done on a CineMAX, considering the Reality 909 is rated to be able to display 3200x2560p, i should be able to get a reasonable looking 3840x2160i out of a modded CineMAX, but time will tell. I have a simulation green here to go in along with brand new red and blue, and as razor sharp as 1920x1080p is allready i have reasonable hopes for double that in an interlaced format.
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elpha
Joined: 13 Jan 2011
Posts: 138
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| Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:53 am Post subject: |
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Hello all, there is some time I bought a green tube simulation grade. I find no differance with P19LUG tube or new LPB, but the price is not present ... 
elpha
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:29 am Post subject: |
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The price i paid was not very high. Unless youve modded the set you may not see the advantage to the better tubes.
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gjaky
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2802
Location: Budapest, Hungary
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:49 am Post subject: |
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6 of them, i dont know the exact ones
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jask
Joined: 17 Mar 2006
Posts: 10187
Location: kamloops BC
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| Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | A lot of people do not care about specifics unless they want to start a bickering match.
Don't get me wrong digital is getting better and better but for some CRT is a hobby and those who treat it as a hobby like to see how far they can push it regardless of cost. Sure they can do it by getting a digital but what fun and challenge is that?
If Greg helps them get the best out of an old technology that the large manufactures abandoned then I think it is a great thing.
Just like in Audio, some like a certain sound others don't same goes here for CRT, I prefer a slightly soft image over the razor sharpness that cuts my cornea out
This type of bashing here is why we lost a few good members who contributed a lot of tech info. Being attacked
by many who just want to get their egos boosted does no good for this forum. And I am not talking about the political thread bashing.
Athanasios |
I care about specifics, and I do not want a bickering match.
I want the information so that I can make an informed decision.
If Greg is making an improvement can it be quantified? is it better? when he improved Allen G's projector the image became less film like and Allen had him install a "sharpness" control to return some softness to the image.... better?
There have been a lot of claims without objective results, there are standard patterns and tests for on screen image quality that would show this improvement.
so...
Gregs claim in the thread title was that his sim grade tubes were better than a digital.... in the thread it was tubes plus boards... when the only person on record who was there offered a review that contradicted Greg.... all of a sudden he is just a hobbyist who..... yadda yadda.
There are facts and there are opinions, we do not need a comparison against every projector out there, because what he is selling is an improvement to what we have now.
Sure it is better! HOW MUCH? a set of tubes and full board set is a good start on an RS66... right now I am really enjoying my XGLC... should I spend the money on doing a Greg mod to my 1208/2 and hang it back up in the theater? will it be better? how much and in what way?
I have talked to Greg on the phone and it is clear that he is passionate about his work, but these questions keeps waiting to be answered after years of people asking.
asking someone to prove a claim is not an attack Nash, it is the difference between fact and opinion.
Ed: Sp
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135
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| Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:07 am Post subject: |
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Once Case gets his boards we'll at least have the opinion of a board member. Greg's site has photos that show before/after of windows desktops and such but I'm not sure if that would suffice as iron clad objective proof. As Nash said to me a few minutes ago if MTF were measured and posted that would be objective evidence. Unlikely that will happen therefore Case's perspective will be the best source of subjective information we'll likely see anytime soon.
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Projector: Modded 9501LC ULtra- MP VIM, Vold VNB, ETECH LVPS, Silver VIM Cables, HD10F's & a V1 case!
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:08 am Post subject: |
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Give me a couple months people
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jask
Joined: 17 Mar 2006
Posts: 10187
Location: kamloops BC
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| Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:25 am Post subject: |
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Thank you, that would be great.
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 7:57 am Post subject: |
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Im working too many days to get to it yet, and Bathurst is on in a little while so ill need it for that.
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