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kabuby77
Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Posts: 147
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:46 am Post subject: |
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VW 1000 is an outstanding machine, but it has also some weak points. First it is very bright , you can use screens up to 160" , unfortunately for this reason the black level is not as good as best jvc. The reason is the necessity of having much light for the 3d. The second problem is the electronic noise that affect images if you overdo with enhancements like reality creation. The machine is very sharp, but you need big screens to enjoy the 4k. Wait the next generation or jvc 4k projectors and you will not have more advantages with crt.
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opv
Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 202
Location: Emek Hefer,Israel
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| Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:59 am Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | (I find most CRT owners turn their brightness down too far and crush blacks, loosing detail. While there will of course be some exceptions, most times when someone with a CRT projector says they can't see their hand in front of their face, they're crushing black).
Kal |
(I find most digital owners turn their contrast up too far and crush whites, loosing detail. While there will of course be some exceptions, most times when someone with a digital projector says they he has a super bright picture, they're crushing whites).
Can you argue with that? some people, both digital and CRT owners, simply don't know what they are doing. 
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HogPilot
Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383
TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD
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| Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:03 am Post subject: |
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| opv wrote: | | kal wrote: | (I find most CRT owners turn their brightness down too far and crush blacks, loosing detail. While there will of course be some exceptions, most times when someone with a CRT projector says they can't see their hand in front of their face, they're crushing black).
Kal |
(I find most digital owners turn their contrast up too far and crush whites, loosing detail. While there will of course be some exceptions, most times when someone with a digital projector says they he has a super bright picture, they're crushing whites).
Can you argue with that? some people, both digital and CRT owners, simply don't know what they are doing. |
Is it "most" or is it "some"? Do you actually know of anyone who does this? Or are you just engaging in hypothetical hyperbole to try to counter a valid point? I haven't heard of a single person who owns a DLP, LCD, or LCoS machine that cranks the contrast to get more light. Usually extracting more light from one of these units involves messing with the white balance to take advantage of the spectral output of a given bulb.
_________________
| ecrabb wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure. |
He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.
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opv
Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 202
Location: Emek Hefer,Israel
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| Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:18 am Post subject: |
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| HogPilot wrote: | | opv wrote: | | kal wrote: | (I find most CRT owners turn their brightness down too far and crush blacks, loosing detail. While there will of course be some exceptions, most times when someone with a CRT projector says they can't see their hand in front of their face, they're crushing black).
Kal |
(I find most digital owners turn their contrast up too far and crush whites, loosing detail. While there will of course be some exceptions, most times when someone with a digital projector says they he has a super bright picture, they're crushing whites).
Can you argue with that? some people, both digital and CRT owners, simply don't know what they are doing. |
Is it "most" or is it "some"? Do you actually know of anyone who does this? Or are you just engaging in hypothetical hyperbole to try to counter a valid point? I haven't heard of a single person who owns a DLP, LCD, or LCoS machine that cranks the contrast to get more light. Usually extracting more light from one of these units involves messing with the white balance to take advantage of the spectral output of a given bulb. |
Hi Hog, long time. 
I have seen several cases in which a digital PJ owner, puts the wrong contrast value.
He doesn't do it in order to boost the light output, but simply because he doesn't understand the effect on the image, and simply playas with it until he's satisfied. or worst, he took the projector with the default out of the box settings.
In fact, due to the fact that setting up a digital PJ to give a basic picture, is much easier than setting a CRT PJ to give a basic picture, I have to assume that a typical CRT owner, knows more about image quality than the typical digital PJ owner.
Thus, I think the probability that a digital PJ owner uses wrong contrast and brightness values is not lower, to say the least, then the probability that a CRT owner uses wrong values.
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Diddern
Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:19 am Post subject: |
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| opv wrote: | | kal wrote: | (I find most CRT owners turn their brightness down too far and crush blacks, loosing detail. While there will of course be some exceptions, most times when someone with a CRT projector says they can't see their hand in front of their face, they're crushing black).
Kal |
(I find most digital owners turn their contrast up too far and crush whites, loosing detail. While there will of course be some exceptions, most times when someone with a digital projector says they he has a super bright picture, they're crushing whites).
Can you argue with that? some people, both digital and CRT owners, simply don't know what they are doing. |
I mean If you know basic you don't do this mistake. Some do this for Shure, and they don't know enough. A lot of the CRTs I have seen have turned the brightness to low, to get a better black level, and then loose details in black and get black crush.
And if you buy a projector for around 4000-20000 dollar you use a calibrator for the CMS ,gamma, greyscale, contrast and so on, so you know you get the best out of your machine. And correct" both digital and CRT owners, simply don't know what they are doing"
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opv
Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 202
Location: Emek Hefer,Israel
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| Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:25 am Post subject: |
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| Diddern wrote: |
And if you buy a projector for around 4000-20000 dollar you use a calibrator for the CMS ,gamma, greyscale, contrast and so on, so you know you get the best out of your machine. |
That is true for both digital and CRT projectors.
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HogPilot
Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383
TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD
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| Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:08 am Post subject: |
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| opv wrote: | | HogPilot wrote: | | opv wrote: | | kal wrote: | (I find most CRT owners turn their brightness down too far and crush blacks, loosing detail. While there will of course be some exceptions, most times when someone with a CRT projector says they can't see their hand in front of their face, they're crushing black).
Kal |
(I find most digital owners turn their contrast up too far and crush whites, loosing detail. While there will of course be some exceptions, most times when someone with a digital projector says they he has a super bright picture, they're crushing whites).
Can you argue with that? some people, both digital and CRT owners, simply don't know what they are doing. |
Is it "most" or is it "some"? Do you actually know of anyone who does this? Or are you just engaging in hypothetical hyperbole to try to counter a valid point? I haven't heard of a single person who owns a DLP, LCD, or LCoS machine that cranks the contrast to get more light. Usually extracting more light from one of these units involves messing with the white balance to take advantage of the spectral output of a given bulb. |
Hi Hog, long time. |
I see the passage of time hasn't honed your hackneyed thought processes at all. As usual, we find you back-peddling and severely contradicting yourself as your post-hoc argument crumbles before you. First you start with:
| opv wrote: | | most times when someone with a digital projector says they he has a super bright picture, they're crushing whites. |
Most. That sounds like a lot to me! Well, not really:
Okay, okay, well "some" is still a decently-sized group of people distorting their pictures for more light output!
| opv wrote: | | He doesn't do it in order to boost the light output |
Thus far you've surmised that most some digital owners boost contrast for increased light ouptut aren't doing it to boost light output. Somewhat contradictory, but you've definitely established that a lot of digital owners do this. And why would some digital owners screw with contrast if they're not getting extra light?
| opv wrote: | | I have seen several cases in which a digital PJ owner, puts the wrong contrast value. |
Yikes. So most some several - not even a small fraction of a single percent of the millions of projector owners out there - boost contrast for increased light ouptut aren't doing it to boost light output. This argument has tripped on itself several times already, but dare I ask why this fractionally small percent of projector owners would crank their contrast control if they don't think they're getting more light out of their unit?
| opv wrote: | | but simply because he doesn't understand the effect on the image, and simply playas with it until he's satisfied. |
Why would this be a phenomenon limited to digital owners? Here comes the brilliant answer:
| opv wrote: | | In fact, due to the fact that setting up a digital PJ to give a basic picture, is much easier than setting a CRT PJ to give a basic picture, I have to assume that a typical CRT owner, knows more about image quality than the typical digital PJ owner. |
Glorious. Now the relative complexity of CRT setup means that owners intrinsically know more about image fidelity than do digital owners? Never mind that the ease of setup for a digital combined with widely available, free material like WOW and AVS709 allows end-users to more readily adjust their picture controls. What if CRT users have intrinsically worse pictures because of the amount of knowledge and tinkering required to set up their units? CRT users also tend to be on a budget, so they're less likely to hire a professional calibrator to manipulate those complex controls to get a top-notch picture.
See what I did there? Not one shred of actual proof, I just shoddily threw some basic facts together and then extrapolated wildly to fit my desired premise. By now your silly post-hoc points have only helped to illustrate one thing: that you'll argue the result that you like regardless of facts or actual data.
_________________
| ecrabb wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure. |
He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.
SC |
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:49 am Post subject: |
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Hog, that was one of the most amusing posts in this whole thread, so well written, so concise, so long winded but that was the best part, the laughs just kept on keeping on to the point where not only my stomach hurts, but so does my back, and my neck. 
Even in all this pain, ive still got a smile on my face 10 miles wide. 
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:52 am Post subject: |
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And in all seriousnous ( as much as i can be after that laugh ) everything you said there was true!!
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HogPilot
Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383
TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD
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| Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:57 am Post subject: |
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Glad that my primary goal was achieved 
_________________
| ecrabb wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure. |
He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.
SC |
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 11:06 am Post subject: |
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Exceptional work my friend
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Diddern
Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 11:19 am Post subject: |
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 Hehe, slow computer today ...
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opv
Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 202
Location: Emek Hefer,Israel
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| Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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Hog,
I started reading and I stopped.
I don't want to go there, again.
If it makes you happy, you win.
Piece man.
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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| opv wrote: | (I find most digital owners turn their contrast up too far and crush whites, loosing detail. While there will of course be some exceptions, most times when someone with a digital projector says they he has a super bright picture, they're crushing whites).
Can you argue with that? some people, both digital and CRT owners, simply don't know what they are doing. |
I have to say I agree with Hog and don't agree at all with your statement above.
Due to the nature of the technology, most digitals right out of the box have the correct brightness and contrast settings that provide correct black level and correct white level that do not clip or crush anything. There's no need to adjust either, so my experience has been that most digital owners do not.
Like Hog mentioned, turning the contrast up on a digital does not increase light output. That's impossible given the nature of the light source (a bulb that's on 100%).
On CRT however, you HAVE to adjust both brightness and contrast, because of the nature of the technology. It's unavoidable. And unfortunately many do it incorrectly.
I had originally said "most CRT owners turn their brightness down too far and crush blacks, loosing detail.". In retrospect, it should have probably said "many" instead of "most".
I will definitely say however that MOST crt owners who say they can't see their hands in front of their face on a full field 0 IRE signal are either lying or setting their brightness too low and crushing blacks. It takes a very special machine, special setup, and usually something like a Lumagen Radiance (or similar) with parametric multi-point gamma to do avoid this.
On my previous Barco Cine 8 LC equivalent machine I used a single point gamma adjustment (via RTC2200) to come out of black faster but I was still unable to get a 100% black screen such that I couldn't see my hand in front of my face and *not* crush black detail, so I had to set my brightness just slightly higher resulting in an image where I *could* see my hand in front of my face. Because of this, with my new JVC RS56 digital I actually get better/deeper blacks (still without video processor, and the RTC2200 is gone). I wrote about it here. Here's a quote:
| kal wrote: | | So how is the actual black level (16)? Better than my Zenith 1200 CRT projector. Yes, that's right. Better. Why? I can get darker with the RS56 without losing low level detail. On the Zenith 1200 (gamma set to around 2.2 or 2.3 if I remember correctly with an RTC2200 box) I have to turn brightness up slightly to avoid losing close to black detail. With a Radiance or something more advanced that provides 20-point gamma adjustment, I may have been able to keep black lower on the CRT without crushing close to black detail. I don't know. So while I say the RS56 has better blacks on my setup, both are fantastic. You don't notice elevated blacks on either. I was worried about black level on the RS56 but my fears are unfounded. |
The CRT projector was new to me when I got it (completely new, not just new to me). It was set up from the board level up (I documented the high level procedure here) and then calibrated (using the guide I wrote here, and then later with ChromaPure).
This is why I always chuckle somewhat when I read or hear about the "better blacks" of CRT vs digital. Yes, if your tube BIAS is set correctly you easily turn down the brightness on that CRT projector so that almost zero light comes out of the tubes but I'll bet that you're probably losing near black detail doing it. Too many people are ignorant about proper setup and simply set brightness too low because, well, it's a CRT and they can. I've been in so many houses where the CRT owner will say "Look at those blacks!" and all I can think is "look at that loss of low IRE detail!".
Kal
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kabuby77
Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Posts: 147
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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Kal I read your guide in order to calibrate my CRT , but default calibration of my machine was not so bad
I can see all gray bars, there's no crushed blacks, I think this problem comes because many projectors are not linear.
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Diddern
Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 821
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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| kabuby77 wrote: | Kal I read your guide in order to calibrate my CRT , but default calibration of my machine was not so bad
I can see all gray bars, there's no crushed blacks, I think this problem comes because many projectors are not linear. |
After what I've headed from calibrators is that a CRT is very difficult to get liniar or impossible.
And D65 and rec 709 you need to calibrate with good equipment. And maybe then far from a hit.
Many CRT user, even me did not calibrate the CMS or grayscale. Just by its ok and I like the fantastic colors
and result not even near the HDTV standard rec 709 d65.and by calibrating yourselves you don't use the pro. Stuff and think you get a good result when the fact is totally different.
The last 6 years I've had maybe 10 different projectors and all calibrated correct by a pro with the equipment shown with pictures. And everyone in my totally dark batcave.
For best experience possible.
One thing is for shure if you calibrate and then not yourselves you get a better result.
Last edited by Diddern on Tue Oct 01, 2013 3:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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opv
Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 202
Location: Emek Hefer,Israel
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| Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | | opv wrote: | (I find most digital owners turn their contrast up too far and crush whites, loosing detail. While there will of course be some exceptions, most times when someone with a digital projector says they he has a super bright picture, they're crushing whites).
Can you argue with that? some people, both digital and CRT owners, simply don't know what they are doing. |
I have to say I agree with Hog and don't agree at all with your statement above.
Due to the nature of the technology, most digitals right out of the box have the correct brightness and contrast settings that provide correct black level and correct white level that do not clip or crush anything. There's no need to adjust either, so my experience has been that most digital owners do not.
My experience is totally different and I have seen and tested quite allot of digitals.
Like Hog mentioned, turning the contrast up on a digital does not increase light output. That's impossible given the nature of the light source (a bulb that's on 100%).
It doesn't increase peak light output. however, many of the scenes become brighter, thus the average light output in a movie, for example, does increase.
On CRT however, you HAVE to adjust both brightness and contrast, because of the nature of the technology. It's unavoidable. And unfortunately many do it incorrectly.
I had originally said "most CRT owners turn their brightness down too far and crush blacks, loosing detail.". In retrospect, it should have probably said "many" instead of "most".
I will definitely say however that MOST crt owners who say they can't see their hands in front of their face on a full field 0 IRE signal are either lying or setting their brightness too low and crushing blacks. It takes a very special machine, special setup, and usually something like a Lumagen Radiance (or similar) with parametric multi-point gamma to do avoid this.
On my previous Barco Cine 8 LC equivalent machine I used a single point gamma adjustment (via RTC2200) to come out of black faster but I was still unable to get a 100% black screen such that I couldn't see my hand in front of my face and *not* crush black detail, so I had to set my brightness just slightly higher resulting in an image where I *could* see my hand in front of my face. Because of this, with my new JVC RS56 digital I actually get better/deeper blacks (still without video processor, and the RTC2200 is gone). I wrote about it here. Here's a quote:
| kal wrote: | | So how is the actual black level (16)? Better than my Zenith 1200 CRT projector. Yes, that's right. Better. Why? I can get darker with the RS56 without losing low level detail. On the Zenith 1200 (gamma set to around 2.2 or 2.3 if I remember correctly with an RTC2200 box) I have to turn brightness up slightly to avoid losing close to black detail. With a Radiance or something more advanced that provides 20-point gamma adjustment, I may have been able to keep black lower on the CRT without crushing close to black detail. I don't know. So while I say the RS56 has better blacks on my setup, both are fantastic. You don't notice elevated blacks on either. I was worried about black level on the RS56 but my fears are unfounded. |
The CRT projector was new to me when I got it (completely new, not just new to me). It was set up from the board level up (I documented the high level procedure here) and then calibrated (using the guide I wrote here, and then later with ChromaPure).
This is why I always chuckle somewhat when I read or hear about the "better blacks" of CRT vs digital. Yes, if your tube BIAS is set correctly you easily turn down the brightness on that CRT projector so that almost zero light comes out of the tubes but I'll bet that you're probably losing near black detail doing it. Too many people are ignorant about proper setup and simply set brightness too low because, well, it's a CRT and they can. I've been in so many houses where the CRT owner will say "Look at those blacks!" and all I can think is "look at that loss of low IRE detail!".
There are people who don't know what they are doing in both camps.
However, more advanced users can reach perfect black w/o any compromise in dark details. and with CRT you can get perfect gamma 2.4, not only 2.2.
Kal |
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geisemann
Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 4:16 pm Post subject: New tests and mods comming |
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Hi
Just to help with some improvements....
Yes please replace the cable between the switcher and the RGB driver AWG 25 mini COAXES 16 PF per foot or less and makes the cable shorter. You just need to pull both cards out at once.
808s
1209s
909
Cine 9
You can do this on the small white cables.
Also remove the Peaking circuits these were only meant for lower resolutions.
These pictures shown on this thread were a non-calibrated 808 and it had an old RGB driver, old switcher with the old cables and old components. So a comparison is needed with the NEW gen mods I am working on. I don't think the 8-inch projector was fully calibrated.
A fully Mod ed 909 or Cine 9 will be the ticket for a full detailed comparison.
I hope that helps.
Greg
www.eisemann-theater.com
Last edited by geisemann on Tue Oct 01, 2013 4:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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HogPilot
Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383
TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD
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| Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| opv wrote: | Hog,
I started reading and I stopped.
I don't want to go there, again.
If it makes you happy, you win.
Piece man. |
The fact that you view this conversation in terms of winning or losing only reinforces my observation that you have a chronic need to fit facts (and untruths) to your desired conclusion - namely that CRT FP is superior to other FP techs. I'm not interested in winning anything here. I'm interested in presenting accurate information and making informed decisions rather than futilely trying to prop up one display tech as better than another. You clearly still cannot grasp that every display technology has its strengths and drawbacks, and one must choose the tech that best achieves their desired goals. Your misinformed "observations" and extreme bias serve no one here to that end.
_________________
| ecrabb wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure. |
He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.
SC |
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ElTopo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1640
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