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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:31 am Post subject: |
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macgyver655: We're simply posting our thoughts and impressions from following and reading on AVS for 10+ years. I've seen some threads about polarizers in projectors getting fried, but never with JVC projectors. Does that mean it can never happen? Of course not.
Note that both HogPilot and myself used terms like "YMMV", "I feel...", "this is purely speculative of course", "I don't think", and so forth. These are our opinions, not the gospel. This is what this thread is about, sharing opinions. Neither of us is saying "it will never happen - we know better than everyone". I'm really not sure where you got that impression.
Kal
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My basement/HT/bar/brewery build 2.0
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HogPilot
Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383
TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD
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| Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:49 am Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | Well gollllllllly. Surely you 2 experts must be correct with all that expert knowledge you guys have.
But what's that. For the last few days I been having conversations with JVC consumer division and an engineer at JVC pro division. Many interesting things I found out about the RS line that I wasn't aware of either. But clearly it's a waste of time posting anything here since there are already experts here.
It's funny. When this thread was started i had though about posting my opinion. But I clicked off the thread @ 3 times before I posted, thinking that surely 2 people would respond negating any response. And what a surprise that that IS what happened. I find myself again thinking I just wasted my time in this thread.
But at least I now have answers for myself. And in the end that is all that matters to me. I could care less of what you guys think or do. It's no money out of my pocket. But I will surely never waste my time in these threads again. |
I'll be a little less diplomatic than kal here: thus far all you've brought to the table is a picture of a melted optical component from an old-model JVC RPTV. Aside from the fact that the display was also made by JVC and uses LCoS panels, it has no bearing on a discussion about JVC's front projectors.
Less attitude and more factual information that actually pertains to the discussion at hand would help sell your position here. Perhaps you can relay any applicable information that JVC shared with you?
_________________
| ecrabb wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure. |
He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.
SC |
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mr_ro_co
Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 1643
Location: Santa Fe NM
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| Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:50 am Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | Well gollllllllly. Surely you 2 experts must be correct with all that expert knowledge you guys have.
But what's that. For the last few days I been having conversations with JVC consumer division and an engineer at JVC pro division. Many interesting things I found out about the RS line that I wasn't aware of either. But clearly it's a waste of time posting anything here since there are already experts here.
It's funny. When this thread was started i had though about posting my opinion. But I clicked off the thread @ 3 times before I posted, thinking that surely 2 people would respond negating any response. And what a surprise that that IS what happened. I find myself again thinking I just wasted my time in this thread.
But at least I now have answers for myself. And in the end that is all that matters to me. I could care less of what you guys think or do. It's no money out of my pocket. But I will surely never waste my time in these threads again. |
You used a far removed example to create unnecessary concern. Then when the inapplicability and farfetched nature of your example was pointed out to you, you justified it with an "anything can happen" what-if, placed the onus on others for failing to imagine your dire what-if, then raised the threat of limited service if that unimagined what-if were to somehow transpire. And all this for a what-if predicated on the assumption of engineering incompetence (or a very unlikely sequence of failures) and an expected possible field failure that has not been reported by anyone.
This is typical of your unhelpful nonsense. But not to worry. After failing to defend your non-existent what-if, you cop an attitude of indignant, coy superiority and then lay claim to proprietary knowledge that would surely terrify JVC projector owners. If only they knew. And maybe they can become aware, but only after consulting you, the exclusive purveyor of such important info.
Do you honestly think you were helpful at all with this thread, your reluctant participation notwithstanding? Seriously. Think about exactly what you think was the real, usable value from your contribution to this discussion.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Nashou66 wrote: | | I think they would be a benefit. And I for one would like to Know what the JVC people have to say. |
Me too. Sharing knowledge for free is good - it's the whole premise behind this website/forum (and especially my new brewing site but I digress...).
It's why I started this thread, to pull together thoughts / ideas / opinions. I never expected to get hard/fast answers to anything as fuzzy as a question like "should I use a UPS on my projector?" since I know it's not black and white.
Please share.
Kal
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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I saw this thread and somewhat looked in on it and agree with all points mentioned so far to some degree.
I understand the "go with a UPS" because of the possible reason to protect the projector from damage.
And with that damage (as pointed out) being the polarizers, then it was a good discussion because it pointed out the main reason I would have been concerned. Polarizers are extremely sensitive to heat. And I think Mac was trying to point that out.
But on another side of things, Hog dude presented a good argument against using an UPS, and it seemed he supported his position with proof that there was no need to be concerned giving the history of the modern day JVC units.
My experience on commercial projectors with heat damaged to polarizers, are from normal but long term use, to even after a power failure causing accumulated heat buildup in the unit. The damage is revealed in either an obvious visual anomaly. Or a polarizer that looks perfect, but proper color balance becomes difficult.
It seems that the JVS units are not damaged by either normal use or power failing heat build up. If that's the case, than there may not be a need for a UPS.
But if a UPS would be used, it would have to be a very good (clean sine) one. And a very good one is also a very expensive one.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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Last edited by macgyver655 on Sat Jul 27, 2013 1:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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Macgyver, people are simply posting their opinions that, yes, differ from yours. That's going to happen, just like your opinion may be different from others. I don't see anyone being hostile about it all.
| macgyver655 wrote: | | And, clearly adding a UPS here is nothing more then adding an insurance policy. |
Correct. One that some of here (myself included) do not feel is worth it. YMMV.
| Quote: | | You just have to decide if you want that insurance. |
Absolutely correct.
| Quote: | | Would someone else try to talk you out of buying car insurance just because they never had an accident? Or try to talk you out of house insurance because they never had a fire. |
I don't think those are very good analogies. A better analogy would be talking someone out of having earthquake insurance when they live in an area where there is no history of earthquakes. While an earthquake is possible anywhere, the odds are against it and nobody has reported one, so most people would probably tell the home owner that it's not worth it.
Same as frying polarizers and parts in a JVC RS series projector is possible, but a few of us in our 10+ years of reading AVS have never heard of anyone have this happen so I don't feel a UPS is worthwile. You might feel it is, which is fine. Neither opinion is more or less wrong or right (they're opinions after all).
| Quote: | | If you want to throw around speculation lets try this scenario. Your watching something on your RS later in the evening and the power goes out,. It's pitch black and your fumbling around to get up stairs and see if others are also out of power. Seeing they are and a few hours go by and you go to bed. In the middle of the night the power comes back on and your projector does a restart. After the lamp came on a few minutes later the lamp explodes and a piece of the hot filament lights a piece of plastic on fire. As the fire grows it starts the ceiling on fire as everyone is a sleep. I will stop this scenario here and let you fill in the blanks. So how would you feel now about getting talked out of that UPS insurance policy? |
When you pull the plug on the projector (or any TV/display) and then re-apply power, it doesn't come back on. It goes into standby.
But even if it did come back on I don't understand the argument - you're going in circles by saying "but what it does happen"?
To use the earthquake analogy from above, that's like me saying "I don't have earthquake insurance on my home because I live in a area where earthquakes are not known to happen". To which you reply "but what if there's an earthquake and your house falls in a hole?". To which I reply "But earthquakes are not known to happen here". To which you argue "but what if it does?". Circular. It's the same argument. Nothing new.
| Quote: | | Is that far fetched, YES. Is it possible, well you tell me. |
Of course anything is possible. My house could get hit by a meteor tomorrow. Do I get meteorite insurance? No, but I don't think it's worth it. You may choose to pay for it but you'd have a hard time convincing others that it's worth it.
| Quote: | | But let me assure you, he gave his opinion on a UPS and I didn't even ask about it. |
If his opinion strengthens your own opinion on the subject, I don't understand why you wouldn't post it as you really seem to want to convince others that your opinion is the right one and everyone else's logic is flawed.
Kal
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | | I don't think those are very good analogies. A better analogy would be talking someone out of having earthquake insurance when they live in an area where there is no history of earthquakes. While an earthquake is possible anywhere, the odds are against it and nobody has reported one, so most people would probably tell the home owner that it's not worth it. |
I live in Iowa between the Missouri and Mississippi Rivers, and I have earthquake insurance. 
I only bought it because it's so cheap, though. It's like $20/year. I figure at that price, even if I live in the house for 15 years, it's only $300. I waste money on far less practical, more frivolous things. If nothing happens, I'm out $300. On the other hand, if the New Madrid Fault unleashes some pressure and my stucco got all cracked, foundation busted open, or I lost some windows or something, then I'm covered for next to nothing.
That's how I look at this issue. How does the cost of the "insurance" (whatever form that takes) compare to the risk of loss? It seems like projector damage due to power outage is extremely unlikely. Like Hog said, if it were very likely at all, we'd have probably seen at least one loss at AVS from at least one of hundreds of users of multiple generations of projector. Those guys post and bitch if there's a fuzzy on the lens when they take stuff out of the box, so we'd have certainly heard about a burnt up projector.
So, the $500 Liebert? It's insurance, but it's much too expensive relative to the risk IMHO. Another option is nothing. Like I said, risk is clearly very low.
There is another option, though. The lamps are $300. What if power failures (I have actually had one) does nothing to harm the projector, but shortens the lifespan of the lamp significantly? Even if ungraceful power loss doesn't actually harm the projector or lamp, I think we can agree it's probably not a good thing. So, I'm inclined to try one of the Cyber Power sine-wive UPS's I mentioned.
This isn't a mission-critical server. I don't need mission-critical commercial construction, warranty, support, or profit margins. In this case, I mostly care about having decent enough power for a minute or two. Honestly, I don't think an expensive commercial online UPS really makes that much sense in this application.
Maybe the cheap consumer-grade UPS would be fine. I'm all for using well-engineered stuff, but I also don't write stuff off just because it's "consumer". Has anybody done any testing to know that the consumer-grade model wouldn't work well enough for some reason, or is it personal bias and conjector, ala "I use this at work because it's good stuff, and I wouldn't use anything else"? All you'd need is a minute or two for a graceful shutdown.
SC
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | | Let me also add that there is a difference between voicing a different opinion and stating that someone else is wrong with lack of evidence to support it. |
I don't see anywhere in this thread were someone specifically said that you are wrong Mac. I see lots of opinions but nobody saying flat out that "you are wrong".
Kal
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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Last edited by macgyver655 on Sat Jul 27, 2013 1:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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HogPilot
Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383
TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD
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| Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:57 am Post subject: |
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Mac: you can speculate and whine all you want. Bottom line is that, despite all of your doomsday prognosticating, such a catastrophic event has yet to be recorded as actually having happened with any of the projectors that have been inquired about here. Your continued lack of ability to distinguish the improbable from the impossible in this matter has me thinking of an earlier conversation about statistics that we had. No, I won't be taking out a tsunami policy any time soon despite my coastal location and your "what if" scenarios.
edit: Do you know what a sealed light engine is? It means nothing gets in or out - that includes air; thus it is cooled by having air blown on it. The RPTV light engine you referenced is significantly smaller and has significantly less volume through which to distribute energy than the ones being discussed here. Whether or not it's in an RPTV or in a front projector is largely irrelevant.
_________________
| ecrabb wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure. |
He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.
SC |
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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| HogPilot wrote: | Mac: you can speculate and whine all you want. Bottom line is that, despite all of your doomsday prognosticating, such a catastrophic event has yet to be recorded as actually having happened with any of the projectors that have been inquired about here. Your continued lack of ability to distinguish the improbable from the impossible in this matter has me thinking of an earlier conversation about statistics that we had. No, I won't be taking out a tsunami policy any time soon despite my coastal location and your "what if" scenarios.
edit: Do you know what a sealed light engine is? It means nothing gets in or out - that includes air; thus it is cooled by having air blown on it. The RPTV light engine you referenced is significantly smaller and has significantly less volume through which to distribute energy than the ones being discussed here. Whether or not it's in an RPTV or in a front projector is largely irrelevant. |
Clearly after this post you have no idea of what you are talking about. You surely have never repaired one of these and appear to have never actually opened up a digital front projector. Your just trying to post from stuff you have read. It's a waste talking with you after this point so I'm done. Post what ever you want now. Feel free to call me a few names if you want and continue with how I know nothing about the insides if projectors. I won't comment back so wack away.....
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HogPilot
Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383
TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD
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| Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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Haha, because I'm sure you've had your hands on loads of RS-XX's. The ridiculousness just keeps on coming...
But I'm glad the public pity part/meltdown is done. Thanks for contributing zero to this discussion.
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| ecrabb wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure. |
He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.
SC |
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mr_ro_co
Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 1643
Location: Santa Fe NM
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| Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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Elvis has left the building. I mean, Ace has left the sandbox, and he's taking all his toys, or rather, posts with him, raking up the sand after him, covering his tracks and all evidence of his non-contribution to this thread. Especially that recent rather long one. Not to worry, we didn't miss anything. I glanced over it - it was merely an unreadable bitch session.
... indeed.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| mr_ro_co wrote: | Elvis has left the building. I mean, Ace has left the sandbox, and he's taking all his toys, or rather, posts with him, raking up the sand after him, covering his tracks and all evidence of his non-contribution to this thread. Especially that recent rather long one. Not to worry, we didn't miss anything. I glanced over it - it was merely an unreadable bitch session.
... indeed. |
Boy, you just can't stand that fact that you lost in that UPS thread and keep trying to come back with something. I mean if anyone's posts here have provided absolutely "NOTHING" to this thread it's yours. I laugh at your attempts... 
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HogPilot
Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383
TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD
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| Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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This is almost as entertaining as watching Charlie Sheen crash and burn.
_________________
| ecrabb wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure. |
He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.
SC |
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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| HogPilot wrote: | | This is almost as entertaining as watching Charlie Sheen crash and burn. |
Yeah, but instead your driving. I said I was done with the original topic but if you want to continue the bickering I'm fine with that.
So where do you want to start. How about, you clearly have no idea of what you talking about and just want to insite disagreement.... Your turn.
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