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Spanky Ham

Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central

Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 11:00 pm Post subject:

HogPilot wrote:

ecrabb wrote:

HogPilot wrote:

Yes, I'm the dirty digital owner here - I guess that makes me snarky by default. Sorry to have jumped in...you may all now return to your regularly scheduled digital-bashing and CRT fist-pumping Mr. Green

+1

Technically, you're just ONE of the dirty digital owners, here. Wink

You, me, Kal, and several others all have newer JVC's.

I'd like to know how many guys here that bash digital for poor black levels, SDE, and "bad color" have ever seen a recent, good digital projector. I'd bet not very many.

SC

Well, as a previous CRT owner you seem to be immune to being labeled as "snarky" Smile

J/K

I would be interested to hear some impressions from some of the forum CRT aficionados if they were able to see a well-setup RS66 on a large screen. I honestly wouldn't expect any to declare their allegiance to the "grey side" on the spot, but I do think at least some would be a tad less critical.

Do you want to hear their comments on or off the record? Mr. Green

I have said this for awhile now. I bet if a lot of CRTers went over to Kal's place they would probably place an order for a JVC before they left his house. Twisted Evil

macgyver655

Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508

Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 11:16 pm Post subject:

Spanky Ham wrote:

HogPilot wrote:

ecrabb wrote:

HogPilot wrote:

+1

Technically, you're just ONE of the dirty digital owners, here. Wink

Well, as a previous CRT owner you seem to be immune to being labeled as "snarky" Smile

Do you want to hear their comments on or off the record? Mr. Green

I have said this for awhile now. I bet if a lot of CRTers went over to Kal's place they would probably place an order for a JVC before they left his house. Twisted Evil

I don't know. I think if you put "wish" they could place an order then yes. From what I can tell most now a days CRTers can't afford a JVC and are even more concerned about the cost of having to replace lamps, even if they last their entire life. If you really pay attention on here you can see that most who have gone to JVC digital can afford it. But the majority on here i don't think they can. Maybe I'm just guessing wrong but that how it appears.

As I stated I'm sure I would be happy with the PQ of a JVC but I personally would never spend that much money on one. Of course my options are different then others here since I can fix my own stuff.

Would I buy a broken JVC....SURE! if the price was cheap enough.

Spanky Ham

Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central

Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 1:17 am Post subject:

On the 8"LC and lower, you can still beat JVCs pricing, but move to a 9" and you are starting to get into the JVC low end. For awhile, one could get a JVC b-stock for $1800. Of course, a 9' will need a vp and moome card, which adds to the cost. I am going to play with my G90 for a little while before I make the move.

the big E

Joined: 20 Apr 2013
Posts: 1928
Location: speedwell Tn.

Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 5:37 am Post subject:

Spanky Ham wrote:

On the 8"LC and lower, you can still beat JVCs pricing, but move to a 9" and you are starting to get into the JVC low end. For awhile, one could get a JVC b-stock for $1800. Of course, a 9' will need a vp and moome card, which adds to the cost. I am going to play with my G90 for a little while before I make the move.

i am one of the ones that went to a crt from a digital and the advantages for crt are still there can a digital projector turn the room pitch black on a dark scene in a movie(um nope) can a digital do motion without blurring (some yes most nope) the color rendering is a personal choice(me i favor crt) but keep in mind a digital projectors color rendering is different between brands and models(i have a optima h27 right now on the ceiling of the viewing room and haven't even thought of using it since i got my crt except maybe selling it but i doubt i get anything out of it(resale value sucks due to newer models)

also bulb life the color rendering of a digital changes as the bulb ages

and did i mention digitals don't have true blacks(they are gray black) i use a calibration dvd to tell
_________________
crt king of black

opv

Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 202
Location: Emek Hefer,Israel

Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 9:25 am Post subject:

HogPilot wrote:

opv wrote:

HogPilot,
Is that just me, or are you taking our discussion a little bit too personal?
In general, everything I write is my opinion, I think it goes without mentioning it at the beginning of each line (except for known facts like 1+1=2, which isn't my opinion. well I guess you understand what I mean).
It was a nice theoretic discussion and I still don't know what made me deserve that last post, my English maybe?
Keep enjoying your setup and consider a cold shower.

It's just you - I'm not taking anything personally. You made many assertions - personal opinion or otherwise - and I challenged the ones that were incorrect. If you're interpreting my not agreeing with everything you say as me taking something personally, then again you are incorrect.

If anything you've been quite defensive about CRT - and only metrics which would support it as your display tech of choice, while casually brushing aside anything else - from your first post in this thread. I'll suggest that dismissing a thoughtful reply with snarky (seems to be the word of this thread) quips like, "well good for you" doesn't give you the appearance of someone who's not taking things personally, or who is looking for just a "theoretic [sic] discussion."

What exactly do I fail to explain (or you fail to understand)?
I love the CRT PQ--> I use CRT. not the opposite direction.
I'm not the first one to say that the combination of ansi CR and on/off CR doesn't tell you the whole story about CR.
If it tells the whole story than any entry level LCD PJ with a good DI, would give the same pop as a CRT projector, right?
You do agree that an entry level LCD projector with a DI doesn't give the same pop of a CRT PJ, right?!

You want to hear my experience with digital PJs? I'll play your little game.
Here is the list of digital projectors I spent time with in the past two years:
Sony VW95ES
Sony VE30ES
JVC X30
Epson TW9000
Epson TW9100
Epson TW5900
Panasonic AE7000
Panasonic AE8000
Optoma HD33

I calibrated and measured some of these models, and I wrote reviews for some of them. I didn't see all of them in an A/B test with my 9" CRT.

Now do you find me qualified enough for a theoretic discussion about PQ?

HogPilot

Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383

TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD

Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 12:15 pm Post subject:

opv wrote:

What exactly do I fail to explain (or you fail to understand)?
I love the CRT PQ--> I use CRT. not the opposite direction.

I believe that you love CRT PQ, which is why you have a CRT. However you're also dismissive of metrics in which CRT is lacking - ANSI CR and MTF, within the scope of this discussion - and think that, because CRT can still throw a pleasing picture without them, that they're completely useless metrics. I've tried to point out the flaw in this logic but you've resisted any attempts at explanation thus far. I'll give it another shot though.

opv wrote:

I'm not the first one to say that the combination of ansi CR and on/off CR doesn't tell you the whole story about CR.
If it tells the whole story than any entry level LCD PJ with a good DI, would give the same pop as a CRT projector, right?

Not once, in any of my posts, have I said that ANY metric tells the whole story about CR - in fact, I wholeheartedly agree with your statement. You can read all the specs you want, but seeing is believing, right? Now we get to the irony of what you just said: YOU were the one who explicitly stated that ANSI CR and MTF were useless indicators of a projector's performance, despite having never seen a projector with high ANSI CR and MTF.

opv wrote:

You do agree that an entry level LCD projector with a DI doesn't give the same pop of a CRT PJ, right?!

I couldn't possibly imagine the purpose of such a vague and ill-defined question. I'd just as soon tell you whether trains or cars are faster, or whether a river or lake holds more water.

opv wrote:

You want to hear my experience with digital PJs? I'll play your little game.
Here is the list of digital projectors I spent time with in the past two years:
Sony VW95ES
Sony VE30ES
JVC X30
Epson TW9000
Epson TW9100
Epson TW5900
Panasonic AE7000
Panasonic AE8000
Optoma HD33

You'll play my little game? And apparently I'm the one being snarky and taking things personally...quite entertaining Laughing

Let me start by saying I have no idea how any of these projectors measures in terms of MTF, nor will I venture to guess. The article which I linked to you the last two times (and you clearly still haven't read) illustrates how assumptions about MTF can often be wrong. I will say that, of all of the projectors you've listed, not a single one even approaches high ANSI CR - the one that comes closest to measuring decently is the HD33 - but even then, it's a cheap DLP with a smaller 0.65" chip and cheap optics. The optics on the 95ES could potentially support a higher ANSI CR, but LCoS (or SXRD as sony calls their proprietary tech) has never measured over about 400:1 ANSI CR because of the nature of that tech. LCDs can be capable of ANSI CR slightly higher than LCoS, but nothing notable. Bottom line: not one of the projectors you've listed comes close to the price point or performance necessary to attain high ANSI CR. Of all the projectors discussed here thus far, the only one that fits the bill (it's around 1000:1 ANSI CR) is the the Sim2 HT3000E. Which leads me to your question:

opv wrote:

Now do you find me qualified enough for a theoretic discussion about PQ?

Based on what you've listed above, I find you woefully unqualified to talk about high ANSI CR/MTF projectors. You presented a list of entry- and mid-level LCDs (notice you won't find a high-end, expensive LCD projector - this is for good reason), one entry-level DLP, two entry-level LCoS machines, and one mid-level LCoS. None of them are "bad" projectors, but not a single one of them comes anywhere near being appropriate for this discussion.
_________________

ecrabb wrote:

Curt Palme wrote:

Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure.

He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.

SC

Last edited by HogPilot on Sat May 25, 2013 3:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

opv

Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 202
Location: Emek Hefer,Israel

Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 1:58 pm Post subject:

opv wrote:

ecrabb,
A 10 year old LCD projector, even before the dynamic Iris age, also has better ansi CR, better MTF and no high APL compression comparing to a CRT projector.
What does this teach us? that these parameters have very little effect on image quality compared with native static CR.

Let's try again, see the bold part in my post.
I didn't say that these parameters have no effect on PQ.
I did say the have very little effect compared with native static CR.

I gave you a list of PJs I saw in the last two years.
I did see all the Sharp Z models before that: Z9000,Z10000,Z12000,Z21000.
Does the Z21000 count as high ansi CR PJ?

I don't know where you got your numbers, but as far as I know, the Sony SXRD models have the highest ansi CR from all the PJs that aren't DLP based.

Tell you the truth, this is getting quite boring.

HogPilot

Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383

TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD

Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 2:31 pm Post subject:

opv wrote:

I did say the have very little effect compared with native static CR.

I know what you said, and I said your statement isn't correct as a universal rule. I already stated that, in mid- to high-brightness scenes, high ANSI CR and MTF will trump on/off. I've also already addressed your nebulous idea of native static CR.

Until you see a projector with high ANSI CR and MTF, there's really no point in continuing this discussion. Further listing projectors that still don't meet that criteria is an exercise in futility.
_________________

ecrabb wrote:

Curt Palme wrote:

Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure.

He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.

SC

opv

Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 202
Location: Emek Hefer,Israel

Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 2:44 pm Post subject:

Oh please, A Sharp Z21000 isn't a high ansi CR projector? And LCD PJ's have higher ansi CR than Sony's SXRD models, right? You're the ansi CR expert all right!

HogPilot

Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383

TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD

Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 3:03 pm Post subject:

opv wrote:

A Sharp Z21000 isn't a high ansi CR projector?

I missed the 21K in your list. I'll quote a well respected reviewer's statement about it:

"The Sharp XV-Z21000 has a very high ANSI contrast ratio. That means it can easily show both bright and dark details, in the same scene, without any compression or loss of detail. You would be surprised at how many scenes actually have this effect and you can't fully appreciate how well a high ANSI-contrast projector can perform until you see such images."

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_14_1/sharp-xv-z21000-projector-1-2007-part-1.html

Funny, he's saying what I've been saying. But I'm sure he has no idea what he's talking about. Thanks for helping to prove my point. Rolling Eyes

opv wrote:

And LCD PJ's have higher ansi CR than Sony's SXRD models, right?

Your position is so tenuous that you continue to put words in my mouth, generalize and misrepresent my position, and prop up strawmen like the one above. You're making it painfully clear that you're not interested in being rational, you're more interested in burying your head in the sand and chanting your dogma. Enjoy that, and your theater.
_________________

ecrabb wrote:

Curt Palme wrote:

Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure.

He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.

SC

kal
Forum Administrator

Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7

Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 3:08 pm Post subject:

the big E wrote:

If your exposure to digitals is based on the Optima H27 from 2005 then it's no wonder you don't like digital and don't use it. I wouldn't use it either. It's an old entry level ($1200 MSRP) model that probably sold for under $1000 street price.

My experience has been the opposite of yours. My JVC RS56 digital ($8000 MSRP in 2012) does all the things you mention above better than my previous Zenith 1200 CRT ($29,995 MSRP in 2001), including blacks. I could, yes, turn the brightness down on my Zenith 1200 and get darker blacks at 0% stimulus but I would also lose close to black detail so I had to keep brightness up a notch or two. This was even when using a gamma boost box and projector was properly calibrated (complete details in my greyscale guide). My gamma tracked perfectly on the CRT at the low end too. With the digital I don't have to turn up brightness so it has darker blacks. It tracks better at the low end.

While it's not everyone, I think a lot of people who say the blacks are better on CRT don't have it properly set up and are missing low level detail without realizing it.

YMMV of course. Again, like everyone has said, it's not black and white.

Everyone has has seen both my projectors in action preferred the digital.

Kal
_________________

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My basement/HT/bar/brewery build 2.0

Last edited by kal on Sat May 25, 2013 3:33 pm; edited 4 times in total

macgyver655

Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508

Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 3:22 pm Post subject:

Oh man.... this is getting even better today. Hold on everyone, I have to go get a snack.

HogPilot

Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383

TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD

Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 3:24 pm Post subject:

macgyver655 wrote:

Oh man.... this is getting even better today. Hold on everyone, I have to go get a snack. Very Happy

Well, it's no discussion about why we have seasons, how CMS's work, or the basics of statistics, but I suppose it's something Wink

_________________

ecrabb wrote:

Curt Palme wrote:

Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure.

He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.

SC

macgyver655

Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508

Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 3:27 pm Post subject:

HogPilot wrote:

macgyver655 wrote:

Oh man.... this is getting even better today. Hold on everyone, I have to go get a snack. Very Happy

Well, it's no discussion about why we have seasons, how CMS's work, or the basics of statistics, but I suppose it's something Wink

Well isn't your perch just made of gold..... Laughing

HogPilot

Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383

TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD

Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 3:30 pm Post subject:

macgyver655 wrote:

HogPilot wrote:

macgyver655 wrote:

Oh man.... this is getting even better today. Hold on everyone, I have to go get a snack. Very Happy

Well, it's no discussion about why we have seasons, how CMS's work, or the basics of statistics, but I suppose it's something Wink

Well isn't your perch just made of gold..... Laughing

Haha, hardly. There's definitely been better entertainment value in previous threads...and currently in some of those "other" sub-forums Wink

_________________

ecrabb wrote:

Curt Palme wrote:

Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure.

He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.

SC

macgyver655

Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508

Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 3:32 pm Post subject:

HogPilot wrote:

macgyver655 wrote:

HogPilot wrote:

macgyver655 wrote:

Oh man.... this is getting even better today. Hold on everyone, I have to go get a snack. Very Happy

Well, it's no discussion about why we have seasons, how CMS's work, or the basics of statistics, but I suppose it's something Wink

Well isn't your perch just made of gold..... Laughing

Haha, hardly. There's definitely been better entertainment value in previous threads...and currently in some of those "other" sub-forums Wink

I don't know. This one is pretty funny. Digital vs digital. Just peachy. Please, don't let me interrupt. Tell him how sucky is machines are. Mr. Green

macgyver655

Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508

Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 3:34 pm Post subject:

HogPilot wrote:

.and currently in some of those "other" sub-forums Wink

Oh wait. Are you talking about that subject you and i were talking about a few days ago?

Curt Palme
CRT Tech

Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC

TV/Projector: All of them!

Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 3:54 pm Post subject:

Seriously you guys, even I have bailed out of these discussions years ago.. and it's completely in my best interest to be biased.

opv

Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 202
Location: Emek Hefer,Israel

Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 3:58 pm Post subject:

HogPilot wrote:

opv wrote:

A Sharp Z21000 isn't a high ansi CR projector?

And what exactly is that point? That ansi CR has some effect on PQ? sure, I'll give you that.
I would love to have both infinite static CR and ansi CR.
I think it's also great to be healthy, beautiful, rich and smart.

But if we're looking for a parameter that is a barometer for PQ, it will not be ansi CR.
If it were, than CRT projectors that have been the reference for PQ, couldn't have such a low ansi CR.
My point, all over the discussion, is that there is one parameter that is a barometer for PQ, and that's native CR.

HogPilot

Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383

TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD

Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 4:54 pm Post subject:

macgyver655 wrote:

HogPilot wrote:

macgyver655 wrote:

HogPilot wrote:

macgyver655 wrote:

Oh man.... this is getting even better today. Hold on everyone, I have to go get a snack. Very Happy

Well, it's no discussion about why we have seasons, how CMS's work, or the basics of statistics, but I suppose it's something Wink

Well isn't your perch just made of gold..... Laughing

Haha, hardly. There's definitely been better entertainment value in previous threads...and currently in some of those "other" sub-forums Wink

I don't know. This one is pretty funny. Digital vs digital. Just peachy. Please, don't let me interrupt. Tell him how sucky is machines are. Mr. Green

I've really tried my best to keep this agnostic to display tech and rather try to impress the importance of the effects of various PQ metrics upon what we see in a projected picture. That can be especially difficult when the other party has no frame of reference for what's being discussed.

If you've ever been over to some of the plasma vs LCD flat panel discussions or the DLP vs LCD vs LCoS discussions on AVS, they make this look like a friendly discourse. All it takes is one post in the flat panel forum about how, after 5 years, the Kuro is still the king of displays, and you get a firestorm of defensive replies from the Kuro owners, the non-Kuro plasma owners, the cheap LCD owners, the expensive LCD owners...it's ridiculous. Then in the projector forums you've got your entrenched Panasonic LCD PJ fanboys, your entrenched JVC fanboys, your DLP fanboys, and all the other fanboys, and they all go 'round and 'round bashing eachother with the shortcomings of one another's projectors as if that will somehow prove their PJ of choice to be flawless. At least the discussion here is spanning a $20K range of devices, where there's LOTs room for some major difference in PQ. Just as a 7" EM CRT will yield a vastly different picture than a 9" LC CRT, so too will a $500 LCD yield a drastically different picture than a $20K DLP.

Curt Palme wrote:

Seriously you guys, even I have bailed out of these discussions years ago.. and it's completely in my best interest to be biased. Razz

You're right, I should have bowed out before when I first realized the discussion was going nowhere. I'll take your sound advice and now and call it better late than never Smile

_________________

ecrabb wrote:

Curt Palme wrote:

Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure.

He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.

SC

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