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AVphile
Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 334
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
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| Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:39 am Post subject: |
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Well I could be easily convinced to buy the upgrade, especially if it doesn't involve shipping my unit back. The thing is, I've never seen 1080i72 so if it turns out to suck and I never use it then the upgrade is a waste of money.
Jim Peterson is still strongly against using these interlaced modes because of "syntalation and interlaced-stutter where frames are shown for different number of fields". Have any of you using 1081i72 ever seen such artifacts?
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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AVphile
Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 334
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
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| Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:46 am Post subject: |
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Are you talking about the old Radiance firmware or the Vision?
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:54 am Post subject: |
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| AVphile wrote: | Well I could be easily convinced to buy the upgrade, especially if it doesn't involve shipping my unit back. The thing is, I've never seen 1080i72 so if it turns out to suck and I never use it then the upgrade is a waste of money.
Jim Peterson is still strongly against using these interlaced modes because of "syntalation and interlaced-stutter where frames are shown for different number of fields". Have any of you using 1081i72 ever seen such artifacts? |
Well, if you like 1080i 60Hz than you will like 1080i 72Hz more. If interlacing arifacts don't bother you at 60Hz than they still won't at 72Hz because they are not going to get worse by going 72Hz.
Jim really hates interlaced. He thinks it's because he worked with it for so long that he spots the flaws too easily.
...even I really wanted 1080i 96Hz and 120Hz for running 3D BD, but Jim didn't want to go down that road at all.
Tell me again, why don't you want to run 1080p 48Hz?
craigr
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AVphile
Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 334
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
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| Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:08 am Post subject: |
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OK, good to know, thanks.
Actually 1080p48 is currently my mode of choice. I could probably just keep running that, but Corleone has got me all pumped up about 1080i72 and it would be easier on the PJ (less heat in the summer) 
Also the "test engineer" in me wants to get it working for my own education, and because Lumagen said it was supposed to work! Then I can close the case on the whole Radiance purchase. Custom interlaced modes was one reason I upgraded and bypassed my Anthem's built-in VXP chip, which was already doing custom progressive modes fine.
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Corleone88
Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 474
Location: France
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| Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:45 am Post subject: |
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When Jim talked about interlaced mode, maybe it was for digital display not CRT.
CRT manage interlaced signals very well.
I prefer watching at 1080i@96 than 1080p@48 on my BG808: sharper (except during fast camera moves), more stable (less flickering), less noise from the projector.
The only advantage of the 1080p for me is when the camera moves quickly: the picture is a bit sharper.
I will try the 100511 firmware.
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Corleone88 wrote: | When Jim talked about interlaced mode, maybe it was for digital display not CRT.
CRT manage interlaced signals very well.
I prefer watching at 1080i@96 than 1080p@48 on my BG808: sharper (except during fast camera moves), more stable (less flickering), less noise from the projector.
The only advantage of the 1080p for me is when the camera moves quickly: the picture is a bit sharper.
I will try the 100511 firmware. |
Jim knows you are talking about CRT. He's been involved with video engineering for 35+ years. He also knows that anyone who wants to run 1080i at 72Hz or 96Hz is running it on a CRT. He's just very good a spotting details and he doesn't like the distortion that is inherent in interlaced video.
craigr
_________________
JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
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Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
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Corleone88
Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 474
Location: France
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| Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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Ok. Fortunately, I don't have Jim's eyes
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AVphile
Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 334
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
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| Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:54 am Post subject: |
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| Corleone88 wrote: |
I prefer watching at 1080i@96 than 1080p@48 on my BG808: sharper (except during fast camera moves), more stable (less flickering), less noise from the projector.
The only advantage of the 1080p for me is when the camera moves quickly: the picture is a bit sharper.
I will try the 100511 firmware. |
Interesting, I was hoping for the opposite with pans.
Did you get the old firmware to run?
I expect a factory reset before and after would be required as they really packed in a lot more stuff since then.
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Corleone88
Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 474
Location: France
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| Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:52 am Post subject: |
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| AVphile wrote: | | Corleone88 wrote: |
I prefer watching at 1080i@96 than 1080p@48 on my BG808: sharper (except during fast camera moves), more stable (less flickering), less noise from the projector.
The only advantage of the 1080p for me is when the camera moves quickly: the picture is a bit sharper.
I will try the 100511 firmware. |
Interesting, I was hoping for the opposite with pans.
Did you get the old firmware to run?
I expect a factory reset before and after would be required as they really packed in a lot more stuff since then. |
At 48Hz, flickering is too annoying for me. I tried different resolutions and 1080i96 is the best for me.
About the old firmware, I asked Patrick and he gave me the one to try (050508), but unfortunately, the output refresh rate is limited.
So my configuration is now:
OPPO (1080p24)->XD(1080i48 + calibration)->HDQ(1080i96)->Darblee->BG808(HDMI input card).
My HDQ is only used to double the frame rate. I tried to find a simple device that just does double the frame rate, but I didn't find any.
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:21 am Post subject: |
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Sorry, but that sounds a bit like a mess.. You change a 1080P signal to 1080i and change framerate 2 times.. and in the end you put it true a Darblee..
Some screen shots would be interesting.
I have only seen a Barco 808 displaying 960P 60hz 
I think 960P 72hz might be possible.. Avoiding interlace deinterlace interlace the signal in the XD and skipping the HDQ
Just my thoughts.. Without knowing how you like your image twisted..
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Corleone88
Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 474
Location: France
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| Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:08 am Post subject: |
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Well I never thought about 960p72. It is worth a try. But I think that it is a bit too much for my BG808 and will end up with a softer picture than with 1080i96.
To be honest I will receive the Darbee tomorrow and never try it before. I didn't know that it will deinterlace/interlace the signal.
Maybe it will be better to place just after the OPPO.
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:28 am Post subject: |
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If you take a look at the clock calculator Craig made, there is a ASR list on the right side.. Why not try find a resolution that fits the desired max clock you wish to run at 72 Hz P
Maybe 1504x 846P 72hz.. it wil be around 105,000,000hz clock depending on the V & H Total.
What is your clock with 1080i 96hz.?
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AVphile
Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 334
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
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| Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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I have got 1600x900p72 setup on my Radiance:
MEM-A: 1080p48 with Adaptive Contrast=1 (don't need no Darbee)
MEM-B: 1080p48
MEM-C: 900p72
MEM-D: 1080i60
There definitely is a slight loss of resolution on Blu-rays when I switch from A/B/D to C, but it is more than enough for DVDs. When my set wasn't fully tweaked I never noticed the loss in res, but I do now. I don't use it much any more because it runs the PJ hot; for some reason the Barco needs a lot of H sync/porch (Htotal=2100, Vtotal=930, Clock=140MHz).
What timings are you using for 1080p48? I tried to minimize them (Htotal=2300, Vtotal=1125, Clock=124MHz) and don't see any flicker, even in menus! I'm not displaying a computer desktop though.
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AVStefan
Old setup: HDFury3 -> BG-808s -> HD-145
New setup: JVC D-ILA -> Stewart StudioTek 130 G4
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Corleone88
Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 474
Location: France
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| Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: | If you take a look at the clock calculator Craig made, there is a ASR list on the right side.. Why not try find a resolution that fits the desired max clock you wish to run at 72 Hz P
Maybe 1504x 846P 72hz.. it wil be around 105,000,000hz clock depending on the V & H Total.
What is your clock with 1080i 96hz.? |
VTOT = 562, HTOT=2198
VSYNC=5, VSYNC=120
VFRN=2, HFRN=73
VRATE=95.91
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Corleone88
Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 474
Location: France
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| Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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| AVphile wrote: | I have got 1600x900p72 setup on my Radiance:
MEM-A: 1080p48 with Adaptive Contrast=1 (don't need no Darbee)
MEM-B: 1080p48
MEM-C: 900p72
MEM-D: 1080i60
There definitely is a slight loss of resolution on Blu-rays when I switch from A/B/D to C, but it is more than enough for DVDs. When my set wasn't fully tweaked I never noticed the loss in res, but I do now. I don't use it much any more because it runs the PJ hot; for some reason the Barco needs a lot of H sync/porch (Htotal=2100, Vtotal=930, Clock=140MHz).
What timings are you using for 1080p48? I tried to minimize them (Htotal=2300, Vtotal=1125, Clock=124MHz) and don't see any flicker, even in menus! I'm not displaying a computer desktop though. |
VTOT=562, HTOT=2640
VACT=540, HACT=1920
VFRN=2, HFRN=528
VSYNC=5,HSYNC=44
VRATE=48, CLOCK=71280000
To see the flickering very easily, try a movie with a bright unified background (like the sky).
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AVphile
Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 334
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
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| Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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^ something is wrong with those numbers, and that looks like interlaced.
Your HTOT is way too high and your VTOT is like half... was asking about 1080p48 not 1080i48.
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AVphile
Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 334
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
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| Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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Friends,
I just discovered I can't output a 2D signal at 1080p48Hz from a 3D source. The screen freezes on a corrupted image and flashes madly. No problem outputting 48Hz from a 2D source with the same config, or 60Hz from a 3D source.
I have my 3D output set to only display the left or right eye (i.e. OFF) so I can watch 3D Blu-rays that are locked to 3D in 2D, in case you are wondering what the hell I am attempting
_________________
AVStefan
Old setup: HDFury3 -> BG-808s -> HD-145
New setup: JVC D-ILA -> Stewart StudioTek 130 G4
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Corleone88
Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 474
Location: France
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| Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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| AVphile wrote: | ^ something is wrong with those numbers, and that looks like interlaced.
Your HTOT is way too high and your VTOT is like half... was asking about 1080p48 not 1080i48. |
Sorry, here are the correct timings:
VTOT=1125, HTOT=2200
VACT=1080, HACT=1920
VFR=4, HFR=88
VSYN=5, HSYN=44
VRATE=47.95, clock=118681319
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AVphile
Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 334
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
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| Posted: Tue May 07, 2013 2:34 pm Post subject: Radiance mini+ |
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UPDATE!
I bought the "+" upgrade, then entered the code that Jim gave me and I now have a Radiance mini+ 
1080i72 works perfectly, I didn't even have to mess with geometry. I just copied my 1080i60 block and made a few small tweaks. I like it better than 1080p48 as the geometry and timings aren't pushed. The Radiance runs hotter but the PJ runs cooler (quieter).
Thanks for your encouragement guys
_________________
AVStefan
Old setup: HDFury3 -> BG-808s -> HD-145
New setup: JVC D-ILA -> Stewart StudioTek 130 G4
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