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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 1:52 am Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | AnalogRocks wrote: | Yeah 16 hours a day sounds about right. AND I strive to be Atypical  |
You could walk around with a dog turd in your pocket... That would probably guarantee you some uniqueness.
| AnalogRocks wrote: | At least I don't have to put up with pixels  |
Yep. Instead, you get scan lines, shadow-masks, misconvergence, geometry distortion...
SC |
I'll take any ANALOG problem over pixels any day. That being said however, most of my monitors are the high end and I've got them dialled in tighter than a gnats ass. I run a gamma circuit too. It all looks good. Plus I don't have to change an expensive light bulb to watch TV  <poke>
So to sum up. If you're a TV fanatic, leave the TV on all day. go for CRT.
If you watch once in a while buy a digital. An extended warranty may be in order too. All the electronics are designed to die fast now.
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km987654
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 2874
Location: Australia
TV/Projector: Barco BG809s
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| Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:40 am Post subject: |
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| AnalogRocks wrote: | | ecrabb wrote: | | AnalogRocks wrote: | | Yeah 16 hours a day sounds about right. AND I strive to be Atypical |
You could walk around with a dog turd in your pocket... That would probably guarantee you some uniqueness.
| AnalogRocks wrote: | | At least I don't have to put up with pixels |
Yep. Instead, you get scan lines, shadow-masks, misconvergence, geometry distortion...
SC |
I'll take any ANALOG problem over pixels any day. That being said however, most of my monitors are the high end and I've got them dialled in tighter than a gnats ass. I run a gamma circuit too. It all looks good. Plus I don't have to change an expensive light bulb to watch TV <poke>
So to sum up. If you're a TV fanatic, leave the TV on all day. go for CRT.
If you watch once in a while buy a digital. An extended warranty may be in order too. All the electronics are designed to die fast now. |
Most of those CRT issues can be dealt with I am not sure what you can about pixels!!
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:00 am Post subject: |
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| km987654 wrote: | | AnalogRocks wrote: | | ecrabb wrote: | | AnalogRocks wrote: | | Yeah 16 hours a day sounds about right. AND I strive to be Atypical |
You could walk around with a dog turd in your pocket... That would probably guarantee you some uniqueness.
| AnalogRocks wrote: | | At least I don't have to put up with pixels |
Yep. Instead, you get scan lines, shadow-masks, misconvergence, geometry distortion...
SC |
I'll take any ANALOG problem over pixels any day. That being said however, most of my monitors are the high end and I've got them dialled in tighter than a gnats ass. I run a gamma circuit too. It all looks good. Plus I don't have to change an expensive light bulb to watch TV <poke>
So to sum up. If you're a TV fanatic, leave the TV on all day. go for CRT.
If you watch once in a while buy a digital. An extended warranty may be in order too. All the electronics are designed to die fast now. |
Most of those CRT issues can be dealt with I am not sure what you can about pixels!! |
There was a guy on here with a great tag line in his sig: "I don't believe in pixels or fairies"
I can't stand seeing pixels. And no sitting further away isn't a fix for me. I sit really close to the screen. I like it that way. Back in the before times when they still ran film through a film projector to show a FILM that way it's meant to be seen, my favorite spot was front row centre.
Now they show a video in the theatre with giant pixels. I can see them from the front row and from the back row. So yes what DO you do about pixels?
Of course if that doesn't bother you all the better for you. You can enjoy your digital projector and be happy with your purchase. Whichever way the O.P. decides to go I'd like to hear his thoughts on it.
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:31 am Post subject: |
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| km987654 wrote: | | Most of those CRT issues can be dealt with I am not sure what you can about pixels!! |
Sitting a bit further back. If you sit much more than about 1.3x your screen width, you won't see pixels unless you have exceptional vision.
4k will completely solve the issue. The JVC e-Shift machines are truly impressive in this regard. I sat well inside 1x screen width - maybe even .7 or .8x screen widths, and pixels were not visible.
| AnalogRocks wrote: | There was a guy on here with a great tag line in his sig: "I don't believe in pixels or fairies"
I can't stand seeing pixels. And no sitting further away isn't a fix for me. I sit really close to the screen. I like it that way. |
I site very close, too. About 1.2x screen widths. I can just barely see pixels sometimes if I look really hard for them. You may be hyper-sensitive to pixels, but I'm also very sensitive to softness. Unless you have a G90 or 9500 with an über setup, CRT just isn't very sharp. With a really good source like Blu-ray, you're missing a LOT of picture information - especially with a machine like 12xx. So, you can harp on pixels all you want, but you're sitting close to your screen, viewing a pixel-free image with probably about a quarter the detail in the source.
I watched Prometheus with a buddy last night. There was this one scene where the science party was coming down one of the tunnels. It was a wide shot such that 95% of the picture was black or nearly black, and the science party was way down the tunnel - it appeared like maybe 75-100 meters. I had a "holy sh*t" moment when I realized I could actually make out the individual silhouettes of the actors in their space suits and the flashlight beams. Not only did the source have a the resolution to capture a scene like that, but the projector wasn't obscuring a bunch of that detail that made it look VERY realistic. I'm pretty jaded at this point - having seen many, many different types of displays, from manufacturer demos, to commercial stuff, to high-end HT. And that was one of those moments where I was really thrilled with my setup.
| AnalogRocks wrote: | | Back in the before times when they still ran film through a film projector to show a FILM that way it's meant to be seen, my favorite spot was front row centre. |
You and I have very different notions about how good film looked, and I think yours is very romantic. Prints are/were often sub-par, and unless you were there on the first few nights the film was running, it often started showing wear pretty quickly.
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:43 am Post subject: |
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Guess I had better quality theaters here.
]With maybe one or two exceptions all the film prints I saw were fantastic. The exceptions were re-release movies done with really old prints like Texas Chain Saw Massacre or Rocky Horror P.S.
I remember seeing Aliens in the theatre on re-release. James Cameron went back and digitally scrubbed the print with GrainEQ managment. I remember sitting through that movie thinking man, they really made this look terrible. So much so I went back to the top level and looked through the projection booth window to make sure it was being projected on film. I was use to the Laser Disk release which is very grainy. It was the film stock he shot it on. The re-release changed the look and feel of the film.
A couple years later I got to see a 1986 print or Aliens that was well maintained. It looked so much more natural. Too bad it was just the shorter theatrical edition.
As to the pixels. Yes I am very sensitive to them. I also like long walks on the beach and watching the sunset over the water
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tanwn
Joined: 26 Dec 2006
Posts: 104
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| Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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U forgot the biggest issue with digital. To date no digital can achieve the black night scene, fade to black of a CRT in a pitch black room and that is what keeps CRT alive.
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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| tanwn wrote: | | U forgot the biggest issue with digital. To date no digital can achieve the black night scene, fade to black of a CRT in a pitch black room and that is what keeps CRT alive. |
I covered that in several of my posts on the previous page. Neither could film achieve a CRT's fade to black. Everybody beats up on digital because of how it does black (blocking light), when that's exactly how black has been made for over a century with film. With digital, we're actually more closely emulating film projection.
Besides, with the CRT in my room, I could never achieve "fade to black" with the audio, i.e. a good noise floor, because the projector was always screwing it up. No hush box known to man in a normal size room could make one of the good CRTs as quiet as a good digital... So, I traded perfect fade to black (which didn't mirror the cinema experience anyway), for a really excellent noise floor in my room - something I simply couldn't achieve with CRT.
Pick your poison.
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opv
Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 202
Location: Emek Hefer,Israel
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| Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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ecrabb,
If you're so happy with your new JVC, why do you still keep the sony G70 in your avatar? 
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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Just never got around to changing it, opv. Done.
I'll always love certain things about CRT. I honestly really did like the G70; it was an impressive machine even the day I took it down. But, I always hated the noise, and to be truthful, I'm very happy with the JVC. It's not superior to the G70 in every regard, but it is in the areas that matter most to me, and good enough in the other areas.
I'm hoping in the next year or so to flip it and get one of the new e-Shift models, as that will remove one more negative from the equation and shift the balance even more toward the JVC.
Everybody has their priorities and CRT and digital both have their pluses and minuses. Like I said, pick your poison.
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:31 am Post subject: |
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| tanwn wrote: | | U forgot the biggest issue with digital. To date no digital can achieve the black night scene, fade to black of a CRT in a pitch black room and that is what keeps CRT alive. |
There are a couple of reasons for CRT sticking around that have already been stated. Fade to Black seems to be the biggest one, but I am curious just how many are achieving true fade to black without crushing low level detail. Analog how are you doing it?
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:36 am Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: | | tanwn wrote: | | U forgot the biggest issue with digital. To date no digital can achieve the black night scene, fade to black of a CRT in a pitch black room and that is what keeps CRT alive. |
There are a couple of reasons for CRT sticking around that have already been stated. Fade to Black seems to be the biggest one, but I am curious just how many are achieving true fade to black without crushing low level detail. Analog how are you doing it? |
A radiance VP with a 21 point calibration.
Nashou
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AnalogRocks
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Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:22 am Post subject: |
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RTC2200, Box1020 tweak it and don't sweat the details too much. Just watch the movie
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opv
Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 202
Location: Emek Hefer,Israel
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 7:35 am Post subject: |
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It depends on how you define crushed blacks.
In my setup using the gamma circuit of a Moome Ext2, I adjusted the picture so that IRE level 17 is visible when I look into the tubes, but it's not very obvious on the screen. in this case, I get perfect fade to black.
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tanwn
Joined: 26 Dec 2006
Posts: 104
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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Agreed, you need to b at least using some form of gamma control like the excellent Moore ext v3 to let CRT shine against digital. Like I said CRT stil lives because of areas whereby digital can not match it and not even near it in very critical areas.
Oh by the way I am using a Barco Cinemax / cine9, Sony g 70, cine7, d50, optoma hd33.
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| AnalogRocks wrote: | | RTC2200, Box1020 tweak it and don't sweat the details too much. Just watch the movie |
I would like to see the test pattern of that. Somehow I doubt you aren't crushing blacks with that setup and the Sony.
I spent the day with Craig and Curt last week and Craig touched on gamma and black crush a little bit. IIRC he mentioned that most people would need a Radiance like Nash to do perfect gamma.
By the way, Craig's HT is pretty damn nice and has perfect fade to black with gamma. I am sure Jeff knows what I am talking about.
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry Spanky I don't watch test patterns.
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
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Location: Comedy Central
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 2:45 am Post subject: |
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| AnalogRocks wrote: | | Sorry Spanky I don't watch test patterns. |
So, you have no idea if you are crushing blacks or not.
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:01 am Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: | | AnalogRocks wrote: | | Sorry Spanky I don't watch test patterns. |
So, you have no idea if you are crushing blacks or not. |
I don't care if I'm crushing blacks. What I can tell you is I can see great shadow detail in all the stuff I watch and black is still black. If there's some crush there I don't notice it.
I'm over watching test patterns and tweaking. Now I'm on to enjoying movies.
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Audiophile
Joined: 23 Jun 2012
Posts: 29
Location: Manassas, VA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 3:55 am Post subject: |
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Sorry, I didn't mean for this to turn into a CRT vs Digital thread.  Let me say I have had a CRT projector of some kind for over 12 years. The last six years I had a 1272Q ceiling mounted in a dedicated theater. With new sources and special HDMI to RGBHV converters, tweaks, etc.. I had gotten the most I was going to get out of it.
I installed the JVC RS40U and it is better than any CRT projector I have seen. Black levels are CRT quality, no pixel structure (unless you are < 1 foot from the screen), and hanging on the ceiling I can barely tell it is operating. I first set it up on the floor of the theater on top of it's shipping carton and I after powering up I thought the fan might not be working - it is VERY quite. It even has a "convergence" menu for the three panels - it is the CRT-phile's digital.
That being said, I still search E-bay and CL for a deal on a 9"er like a G90 every now and then. If I find one local, I will be sure to start a shoot out thread between it and the JVC.
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AnalogRocks
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Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26706
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 4:15 am Post subject: |
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Honestly I'll take a digital if it's free or near to it. 
Glad you're happy with the JVC. I like the fact there's panel adjustments.
Too bad about the pixel structure though
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