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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | I agree with HogPilot. You have a big, open room, Kal. The temperature and volume of air that comes out of my RS45 is very low, and not that hot, either. I assume it's worse in high lamp mode, but with your room size, you should be fine. |
That's what I figure too. I'll be running in low lamp mode most of the time too. Maybe high lamp for 3D (which I don't really care for).
| Quote: | | I'm just going by the seat of my pants and guessing based on the power consumption specs, but I'm pretty sure the G70 put out a significant amount more heat than this JVC. Significant as in double or more. |
Power consumption on the VPH-G70Q is 750W, Heat dissipation is 2593.4BTU. Power consumption on the RS45 is 330W (360W for the RS55/65). No mention of BTU.
So about 1/2 the power consumption.
You'll save a few pennies/year on stanby as well.  G70: 7W, RS45: 0.8W.
Kal
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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| mc86 wrote: | | Don't apologize for leaving CRT -- that's life, Marc. What I really hope is that folks who've been regulars here and are a part of this great community will be able to continue to find it useful for other things, their new digitals, etc. I realize other forums are visited (not so much by me)...I just hate to see folks leave here! |
I have absolutely no intent on leaving. 
Kal
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| garyfritz wrote: | | kal wrote: | | - Sub-pixel convergence. Yes, some digitals have convergence adjustments to tweak out any problems between the three panel alignments. The RS45 can only do 1 pixel at a time for the whole screen so if you're off by 1/2 a pixel in one direction it'll never get any better. The RS55 lets you adjust small steps at 1/16 of a pixel in 121 screen zones. Sort of like a CRT. |
How in @%!! does that work!? Wouldn't that require adjustable mirrors in the optical path? |
You know what? I have absolutely no idea how it works. I thought I read that it was 100% image processing but not that I think about it some more I have no idea how that could possible work! But then I have no idea how the could do 121 zone convergence with it being mechanical. That doesn't make any sense. I'm sure it's been documented however somewhere (not time to go researching). Anyone know?
Kal
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
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Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | | garyfritz wrote: | | kal wrote: | | - Sub-pixel convergence. Yes, some digitals have convergence adjustments to tweak out any problems between the three panel alignments. The RS45 can only do 1 pixel at a time for the whole screen so if you're off by 1/2 a pixel in one direction it'll never get any better. The RS55 lets you adjust small steps at 1/16 of a pixel in 121 screen zones. Sort of like a CRT. |
How in @%!! does that work!? Wouldn't that require adjustable mirrors in the optical path? |
You know what? I have absolutely no idea how it works. I thought I read that it was 100% image processing but not that I think about it some more I have no idea how that could possible work! But then I have no idea how the could do 121 zone convergence with it being mechanical. That doesn't make any sense. I'm sure it's been documented however somewhere (not time to go researching). Anyone know?
Kal |
http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/tech_desc.jsp?model_id=MDL102123&feature_id=02
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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Hey, next thing you know there will be an ACON camera in front of the JVC...
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HogPilot
Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383
TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | | garyfritz wrote: | | kal wrote: | | - Sub-pixel convergence. Yes, some digitals have convergence adjustments to tweak out any problems between the three panel alignments. The RS45 can only do 1 pixel at a time for the whole screen so if you're off by 1/2 a pixel in one direction it'll never get any better. The RS55 lets you adjust small steps at 1/16 of a pixel in 121 screen zones. Sort of like a CRT. |
How in @%!! does that work!? Wouldn't that require adjustable mirrors in the optical path? |
You know what? I have absolutely no idea how it works. I thought I read that it was 100% image processing but not that I think about it some more I have no idea how that could possible work! But then I have no idea how the could do 121 zone convergence with it being mechanical. That doesn't make any sense. I'm sure it's been documented however somewhere (not time to go researching). Anyone know?
Kal |
You're correct in that it works 100% through image processing. What I've read is that it essentially activates neighboring pixels partially to eliminate the appearance of misconvergence. For example, if red is off by 1/4 pixel, the neighboring blue and green pixels will be partially turned on to "hide" the misconverged red pixel. I've read plenty of people who said they didn't notice any ill effects on PQ from normal viewing distances. I haven't played around with mine yet, but to be honest the convergence is so good on my unit that I'd just as soon not mess with the processing.
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| ecrabb wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure. |
He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.
SC |
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10270
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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Is normal viewing distance still normal once you go beyond 1100 line-pairs (rows)?
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HogPilot
Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383
TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | | kal wrote: | | garyfritz wrote: | | kal wrote: | | - Sub-pixel convergence. Yes, some digitals have convergence adjustments to tweak out any problems between the three panel alignments. The RS45 can only do 1 pixel at a time for the whole screen so if you're off by 1/2 a pixel in one direction it'll never get any better. The RS55 lets you adjust small steps at 1/16 of a pixel in 121 screen zones. Sort of like a CRT. |
How in @%!! does that work!? Wouldn't that require adjustable mirrors in the optical path? |
You know what? I have absolutely no idea how it works. I thought I read that it was 100% image processing but not that I think about it some more I have no idea how that could possible work! But then I have no idea how the could do 121 zone convergence with it being mechanical. That doesn't make any sense. I'm sure it's been documented however somewhere (not time to go researching). Anyone know?
Kal |
http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/tech_desc.jsp?model_id=MDL102123&feature_id=02 |
This is all it says:
| Quote: | 1/16th Pixel Convergence
Calibrators are provided with 121 alignment points enabling the projector to deliver precise convergence at all lens offsets, across the entire screen. Adjustments are made to an accuracy of 1/16th pixel. |
Not very helpful.
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| ecrabb wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure. |
He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.
SC |
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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Let me change my answer Hog. I'm not sure myself on the sub pixel adjustment but i had assumed that the E shift had something to do with it. Did the sub pixel adjustment come at the same time as the E shift? I would think adding more color to a mis converged color would then make a wider scan line and there by decreasing sharpness, no?
Last edited by macgyver655 on Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5689
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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Everything is now being done in "Image Processing" these day, or at least that I what they have been doing in the Commercial AV industries upper end projectors. This same technology allows similar to CRT technology Geometry adjustments. Which is how they are able to use digitals in the Simulators and other unusual screen applications.
Image processing allows them to make various geometry/linearity and other changes in the electronics without ever making any changes to the physical optical path.
I have two Barco projector here that has these options. I'm thinking JVC may be using something very similar.
Barco calls theirs Warping.
Christie also has Image Processing for Blending and Stacking that is software based:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn9C8nbADMw
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| HogPilot wrote: | | You're correct in that it works 100% through image processing. What I've read is that it essentially activates neighboring pixels partially to eliminate the appearance of misconvergence. For example, if red is off by 1/4 pixel, the neighboring blue and green pixels will be partially turned on to "hide" the misconverged red pixel. I've read plenty of people who said they didn't notice any ill effects on PQ from normal viewing distances. I haven't played around with mine yet, but to be honest the convergence is so good on my unit that I'd just as soon not mess with the processing. |
Ah! That makes sense. I've read that you have to use it sparingly which makes sense. I could see how excessive use could lower the (perceived) resolution.
So sort of like point convergence on a NEC... don't use too much.
Kal
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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While this is new in projectors, it's not new to planetarium systems. I've done some work with www.skyskan.com. In their 6 projector based system, we're talking image blending, and alignment is done via the projectors. CRTs of course have the geometry adjustments. within the projector. (try aligning the dome projector at the very top, that has to blend correctly with the other 5 shooting the sides of the planetarium!)
When they switch to digital, the digitals don't have the adjustments within the projector, so all edge blending has to be done within the software of the computer mainframe that supply the signal to each projector. That's why when planetariums switch systems, the whole mainframe has to get swapped out as well. That's 1-1.5 mil approximately, which also explains why many planetariums are finding it cheaper to retube and repair their trusty BArcos or MArquees.
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HogPilot
Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383
TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | | HogPilot wrote: | | You're correct in that it works 100% through image processing. What I've read is that it essentially activates neighboring pixels partially to eliminate the appearance of misconvergence. For example, if red is off by 1/4 pixel, the neighboring blue and green pixels will be partially turned on to "hide" the misconverged red pixel. I've read plenty of people who said they didn't notice any ill effects on PQ from normal viewing distances. I haven't played around with mine yet, but to be honest the convergence is so good on my unit that I'd just as soon not mess with the processing. |
Ah! That makes sense. I've read that you have to use it sparingly which makes sense. I could see how excessive use could lower the (perceived) resolution.
So sort of like point convergence on a NEC... don't use too much.
Kal |
You're absolutely right - it will always lower the actual resolution, and too much will lower the perceived resolution as well.
_________________
| ecrabb wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure. |
He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.
SC |
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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| HogPilot wrote: | | kal wrote: | | HogPilot wrote: | | You're correct in that it works 100% through image processing. What I've read is that it essentially activates neighboring pixels partially to eliminate the appearance of misconvergence. For example, if red is off by 1/4 pixel, the neighboring blue and green pixels will be partially turned on to "hide" the misconverged red pixel. I've read plenty of people who said they didn't notice any ill effects on PQ from normal viewing distances. I haven't played around with mine yet, but to be honest the convergence is so good on my unit that I'd just as soon not mess with the processing. |
Ah! That makes sense. I've read that you have to use it sparingly which makes sense. I could see how excessive use could lower the (perceived) resolution.
So sort of like point convergence on a NEC... don't use too much.
Kal |
You're absolutely right - it will always lower the actual resolution, and too much will lower the perceived resolution as well. |
I changed my post above Hog. re-read. 
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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| HogPilot wrote: | | kal wrote: | | HogPilot wrote: | | You're correct in that it works 100% through image processing. What I've read is that it essentially activates neighboring pixels partially to eliminate the appearance of misconvergence. For example, if red is off by 1/4 pixel, the neighboring blue and green pixels will be partially turned on to "hide" the misconverged red pixel. I've read plenty of people who said they didn't notice any ill effects on PQ from normal viewing distances. I haven't played around with mine yet, but to be honest the convergence is so good on my unit that I'd just as soon not mess with the processing. |
Ah! That makes sense. I've read that you have to use it sparingly which makes sense. I could see how excessive use could lower the (perceived) resolution.
So sort of like point convergence on a NEC... don't use too much.
Kal |
You're absolutely right - it will always lower the actual resolution, and too much will lower the perceived resolution as well. |
Ohh i was thinking it was a nice feature to have, and considered to change my X7 to the X70 just to get the convergence adjustment, but if that how it works, it not for me.
Can other JVC owners try pay attention to the convergence from time to time, and see how it changes, specially when changing lamp.
I have spot on convergence in the middle of the image, and some places around the edge its ½ to 3/4 pixel off.
It was not like that to start with, and i have adjusted the 1 pixel jumps on red and blue.
Thats also why i think that new buyers should get some sort of tolerances to the convergence before buying, i couldn't get any data out of JVC.. They reply send it in and a technician will evaluate it from case to case, and you pay the expenses if we think there is no problem.
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4269
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | | HogPilot wrote: | | You're correct in that it works 100% through image processing. What I've read is that it essentially activates neighboring pixels partially to eliminate the appearance of misconvergence. For example, if red is off by 1/4 pixel, the neighboring blue and green pixels will be partially turned on to "hide" the misconverged red pixel. I've read plenty of people who said they didn't notice any ill effects on PQ from normal viewing distances. I haven't played around with mine yet, but to be honest the convergence is so good on my unit that I'd just as soon not mess with the processing. |
Ah! That makes sense. I've read that you have to use it sparingly which makes sense. I could see how excessive use could lower the (perceived) resolution.
So sort of like point convergence on a NEC... don't use too much.
Kal |
The trouble is that any use (even one click) destroys the 1:1 mapping of that color. If you think about it, you are asking the image to be scaled at various different resolutions throughout the image width and height. This is a lot of scaling and very difficult to do. Artifacts do result.
Whenever I install a single digital projector with an electronic convergence system I try to leave the convergence unused. I don't like the artifacts that result. This goes for the electronic keystone adjustments as well. Digital projectors really need to be aligned mechanically.
craigr
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| CIR Engineering wrote: | | kal wrote: | | HogPilot wrote: | | You're correct in that it works 100% through image processing. What I've read is that it essentially activates neighboring pixels partially to eliminate the appearance of misconvergence. For example, if red is off by 1/4 pixel, the neighboring blue and green pixels will be partially turned on to "hide" the misconverged red pixel. I've read plenty of people who said they didn't notice any ill effects on PQ from normal viewing distances. I haven't played around with mine yet, but to be honest the convergence is so good on my unit that I'd just as soon not mess with the processing. |
Ah! That makes sense. I've read that you have to use it sparingly which makes sense. I could see how excessive use could lower the (perceived) resolution.
So sort of like point convergence on a NEC... don't use too much.
Kal |
The trouble is that any use (even one click) destroys the 1:1 mapping of that color. If you think about it, you are asking the image to be scaled at various different resolutions throughout the image width and height. This is a lot of scaling and very difficult to do. Artifacts do result.
Whenever I install a single digital projector with an electronic convergence system I try to leave the convergence unused. I don't like the artifacts that result. This goes for the electronic keystone adjustments as well. Digital projectors really need to be aligned mechanically.
craigr |
Yes, I agree. And I just don't understand why they don't take the simple approach. Just mount the panels, whether Dila or Dlp to a motorized mount with very fine adjustments where you could move a panel left to right, up or down and even tilt if you wanted. 3 mini motors on each panel. You wouldn't even have to do the green.
Other then installs like Mike posted this would be more then adequate and not cause any artifacts. Point convergence would not be needed either for basic installs.
But what do I know, right...... 
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stridsvognen
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | | CIR Engineering wrote: | | kal wrote: | | HogPilot wrote: | | You're correct in that it works 100% through image processing. What I've read is that it essentially activates neighboring pixels partially to eliminate the appearance of misconvergence. For example, if red is off by 1/4 pixel, the neighboring blue and green pixels will be partially turned on to "hide" the misconverged red pixel. I've read plenty of people who said they didn't notice any ill effects on PQ from normal viewing distances. I haven't played around with mine yet, but to be honest the convergence is so good on my unit that I'd just as soon not mess with the processing. |
Ah! That makes sense. I've read that you have to use it sparingly which makes sense. I could see how excessive use could lower the (perceived) resolution.
So sort of like point convergence on a NEC... don't use too much.
Kal |
The trouble is that any use (even one click) destroys the 1:1 mapping of that color. If you think about it, you are asking the image to be scaled at various different resolutions throughout the image width and height. This is a lot of scaling and very difficult to do. Artifacts do result.
Whenever I install a single digital projector with an electronic convergence system I try to leave the convergence unused. I don't like the artifacts that result. This goes for the electronic keystone adjustments as well. Digital projectors really need to be aligned mechanically.
craigr |
Yes, I agree. And I just don't understand why they don't take the simple approach. Just mount the panels, whether Dila or Dlp to a motorized mount with very fine adjustments where you could move a panel left to right, up or down and even tilt if you wanted. 3 mini motors on each panel. You wouldn't even have to do the green.
Other then installs like Mike posted this would be more then adequate and not cause any artifacts. Point convergence would not be needed either for basic installs.
But what do I know, right...... |
Ahh im not sure its that simple. How would you adjust the panel if your just off in the borders / corners.?
could just as well be the optics that distort the convergence a bit.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| stridsvognen wrote: |
Ahh im not sure its that simple. How would you adjust the panel if your just off in the borders / corners.?
could just as well be the optics that distort the convergence a bit. |
Why would the borders or corners just be off and not the center if the signal is not being manipulated? The digital signal is the digital signal. Unless a panel is warped or damaged.
If it were the optics,(which is very minimal for the actual image) then it would be a flaw and all projectors would suffer the same.
And who's to say that those borders and edges couldn't be correctly from the tilt option?
Hey, I',m not saying it would be perfect either but it's way better then grossly manipulating the signal.
More ammunition for my clip.......
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