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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Thu May 28, 2015 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, looks like Fremmer tested your Audio Technica as well Clarence.
Good- very speed stable, so I guess the wire cutters were correct on that, good on them 
comess with a very good cartridge
easy to set up
cons, like I stated above, the plastic plinth is a thumper and kills the dynamics of the TT, which is one of the mains reasons to get into vinly in the first place 
http://www.analogplanet.com/content/audio-technica-lp120-usb-turntable-shames-plastic-competition
Quote= In terms of its overall sonics, with the supplied cartridge, well considering the price it sounds pretty good but way on the soft side of the sonic fence. Top to bottom transients are soft. So cymbals sound soft, bass lines sound soft and the rhythmic results are soft as well. This makes for a very pleasant but hardly exciting or detailed listening—and that’s with the built-in MM phono preamp or with a variety or external phono preamps I tried.
I did note that despite the relatively high mass plinth, it was quite “lively” and even a gentle tap on it with the stylus in the groove produced a pronounced “thump” through the speakers.
However, backgrounds are quiet and if the goal is easy listening or converting to CD quality digital for less than “archival quality” archiving, the AT-LP120 does the job well.
I installed a low output Adcom Cross-coil cartridge that I’d had rebuilt some time ago that was already installed on a compatible head shell, and while it usually sounds fast, detailed and perhaps slightly aggressive, installed in the AT-LP120 it too is sunk into the soft but pleasant ooze.
Conclusion
The Audio Technica AT-LP120-USB is a well-made, feature packed, “ready to play” inexpensive turntable that is a significant step up from the plastic crap competition. The lightweight platter is clearly one place Audio Technica saved some money, and perhaps it more than anything else accounts for the startlingly soft, but pleasingly lush sound.
In no way does this turntable compete sonically with a more costly belt drive design such as the $399 Pro-Ject Debut Carbon, or even with the less expensive U-Turn Orbit in my opinion though those (especially the U-Turn) can’t begin to compete with the Audio Technica’s build quality, feature set and ease of use. It all depends upon for what you are looking.
From what I experienced with this turntable, Audio-Technica has hit a bulls eye with its target audience—the casual record spinner—especially those seeking to give their vinyl an archival digital final spin.
The AT-LP120-USB is extremely well made, packaged and presented equally well, including excellent instructions for both vinyl playback and computer interface, and with its generous accessories should make casual vinyl spinners very happy with their purchase.
So to summarize, best build quality/speed stability at this price point is the AT
best sonics under $200. - U-turn Audio
Best build quality and Sonics for $400. - Project Carbon
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Clarence
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 3827
Location: Smith Mtn Lake, VA
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| Posted: Thu May 28, 2015 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | | Why not get a good vintage Ttable? Anything Technics, or anything direct drive should be a good candidate for $150-200 used |
OK, I bought a Technics SL-D2 direct drive (with a new Ortofon OMP 5E cartridge) for $100.
And I got a Behringher phono pre-amp for $24 since the AVR in my office doesn't have phono-level inputs.
Listening to Blues Brothers OST. Raided the $1 vinyl bin again at our local second hand store. B-52's, Paul Simon, JT, Kinks, Beach Boys, Buffett, Squier, Cars...
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Thu May 28, 2015 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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well if your determined to increase your budget by $50. increments until you get to a good table, then we're going to be here for a while 
That's an old table, circa 1979, so it depends on how well it was used. If the tonearm bearings are OK and it hasn't been dropped, then it should work fine but you will most likely need to clean the potentiometer for the speed control or it will drift up and down.
it will sound like all the plastic TT's though, kinda dull and lifeless. which come to think of it, is a lot like CD.
Nice score on the LP's, don't forget the $79. spin clean kit to get all the dirt (and noise) off.
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Thu May 28, 2015 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| draganm wrote: | | cons, like I stated above, the plastic plinth is a thumper and kills the dynamics of the TT, which is one of the mains reasons to get into vinly in the first place |
| draganm wrote: | | it will sound like all the plastic TT's though, kinda dull and lifeless. which come to think of it, is a lot like CD. |
First, you tout the dynamics of vinyl/TT (which is just factually false) then in the next post say CD sounds dull and lifeless (which makes no sense at all).  Everybody knows CD dynamic range is far superior to vinyl... About 10dB superior, in fact. Best case.
You can talk about the warmth, musicality, or listenability of vinyl all you want, and I won't even argue about it because it's personal taste, but don't just make up pure BS about "dynamics of the TT". Vinyl is inherently inferior in this regard compared to CD.
SC
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El Duderino
Joined: 23 Jan 2011
Posts: 4653
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Thu May 28, 2015 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | Everybody knows CD dynamic range is far superior to vinyl... About 10dB superior, in fact. Best case. |
I think it's way more than 10db. 16 bit digital has a 96dB SNR theoretical. A very good TT/LP/cartridge has ~55dB SNR.
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Clarence
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 3827
Location: Smith Mtn Lake, VA
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| Posted: Thu May 28, 2015 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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| draganm wrote: | well if your determined to increase your budget by $50. increments until you get to a good table, then we're going to be here for a while
That's an old table, circa 1979, so it depends on how well it was used. If the tonearm bearings are OK and it hasn't been dropped, then it should work fine but you will most likely need to clean the potentiometer for the speed control or it will drift up and down.
it will sound like all the plastic TT's though, kinda dull and lifeless. which come to think of it, is a lot like CD. |
So would your recommended
$400 12 lb. belt-drive Carbon with the Ortofon cartridge sound better than the
$100 15 lb. direct-drive Technics with a Ortofon cartridge?
Actually, instead of sounding better (less dull and lifeless?) will it skip less? That's the only reason I'm looking to upgrade at all.
| draganm wrote: | $400....
To me that's pretty cheap for vinyl, which is just not a budget hobby. |
Old AVR from my basement ($0),
old Polks from my basement ($0),
$1 LPs from the local second-hand store.
Maybe not a budget hobby, but I'm enjoying it enough to drop a hundred bucks on a better turntable... but again, I was mainly looking to reduce the number of skips.
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Thu May 28, 2015 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Clarence wrote: | So would your recommended
$400 12 lb. belt-drive Carbon with the Ortofon cartridge sound better than the
$100 15 lb. direct-drive Technics with a Ortofon cartridge?
Actually, instead of sounding better (less dull and lifeless?) will it skip less? That's the only reason I'm looking to upgrade at all.
| draganm wrote: | $400....
To me that's pretty cheap for vinyl, which is just not a budget hobby. |
Old AVR from my basement ($0),
old Polks from my basement ($0),
$1 LPs from the local second-hand store.
, I was mainly looking to reduce the number of skips. |
any properly working TT should not skip, I suspect that the $50. one had a bad bearing in the horizontal plane of tonearm movement. the slightest bind there and cause a skip.
If all you want is TT that plays records without skipping then you can get almost anything in proper functioning order. I would have a hard time buying a $100. Orotofon Red cartridge and putting it on an old, entry level TT from 1979 that sold for $100. used though if it already had a cart on it.
Just use whatever is on it, assuming the Ortofon OMP 5E cartridge is in good shape then it's a good match. It has a line contact stylus and it's also P mount to match the Technics tonearm, (not sure the 3M Red even comes in P-mount?)
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Posted: Fri May 29, 2015 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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draganm, why do you not accept Clarence doing vinyl at the level he chooses? Maybe he's not aspiring to end up like this (posted by Gary in the joke thread):
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Fri May 29, 2015 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Phil Smith wrote: | | draganm, why do you not accept Clarence doing vinyl at the level he chooses? Maybe he's not aspiring to end up like this (posted by Gary in the joke thread |
What are you talking about?
My last post
| draganm wrote: | | Just use whatever is on it, assuming the Ortofon OMP 5E cartridge is in good shape then it's a good match. It has a line contact stylus and it's also P mount to match the Technics tonearm |
If all he wants is a $50. TT that doesn't skip and plays $1. Thrift store LP's then that's perfectly fine with me.
I don't understand it though, as used CD's now cost 50 cents at any used record store, so presumably you can come home with twice as much music, never hear a crackle or pop, and still have something that sounds just as flat and un-involving as a plastic TT.
so to anyone who would ask me about setting up a 2 channel system, I guess the answer is what are you after and what's your budget.
For less than $400. get a CD player and stock up on used CD's. That's the real bargain now, my last trip to the store they said they don't even offer cash for used CD's anymore, just store credit, probably 25 cents a piece. My vinyl trade-in though though got me 50 bucks for less than 10 records. They were mint condition, but still, that's pretty pricey for old plastic.
Darn Hipsters 
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Clarence
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 3827
Location: Smith Mtn Lake, VA
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| Posted: Sat May 30, 2015 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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| draganm wrote: | | Just use whatever is on it, assuming the Ortofon OMP 5E cartridge is in good shape then it's a good match. It has a line contact stylus and it's also P mount to match the Technics tonearm, (not sure the 3M Red even comes in P-mount?) |
The Technics SL-D2 arrived about an hour ago (shipped in original box and styrofoam). And I got the phono pre-amp from Amazon. So I hooked it all up. Static in one channel, so I figured I'd swap out the Ortofon OMP 5E stylus/cartridge that came with it.
So I googled youtube and watched this to remove the cartridge:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUEPmyKTf54
Easy enough.
But then I tried putting on the new Ortofon OMP 5E cartridge that came with the TT. It's not the same mount. It doesn't have the two bolt holes. The box says "T4P". So I find this description:
http://www.turntableneedles.com/P-mountT4PTurntableCartridgeSelections
| Quote: | P-mount cartridges (T4P) are designed to be interchangeable. A "T4P" insignia is usually present on the turntable to indicate a P-mount tonearm. So, for all practical purposes any brand below will fit and work in a T4P tonearm. The cartridge brand does not have to match the turntable brand. A P-mount cartridge is usually found on linear tracking tonearms which are the ones that slide from side to side. This rule is sometime broken is they are also found on some gimble base straight tonearms.
 |
So my Technics tonearm isn't a p-mount? (The headshell has the two small bolts).
The old cartridge is a AT125LC. Looks like this:
The good news is that when I reassembled the old cartridge back onto the headshell, it worked great. No static. So it must've just been a loose connection in one of the 4 wire connectors.
So what's the non-TP4/non-P-mount cartridge called? (what do I search ebay for to find a 2-bolt cartridge?)
Or is it better to replace the headshell with a p-mount and use the ortofon?
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Sat May 30, 2015 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Clarence wrote: | | The good news is that when I reassembled the old cartridge back onto the headshell, it worked great. No static. So it must've just been a loose connection in one of the 4 wire connectors. |
well it's only a 3 millivolt signal, so any oxidation at all on those micro-pins will cause problems. I would brush on a little pro-gold or de-oxit on all 4 pins then re-assemble
It's rather pathetic the seller sent you a P-mount cart for a TT with standard mounting. shows complete clueless'ness. The TT came originally with a EPC-270C moving magnet cart., and it's most likely a conical tip which is rather crappy. They ride high in the groove, don't track well, and wear the record prematurely. They also don't capture all the information that's on the record. they sell replacement stylus for that cartridge that are elliptical and claim improvement, which suggest the original is conical tip diamond,
http://www.lpgear.com/product/PAS270ED.html
| Clarence wrote: | | So what's the non-TP4/non-P-mount cartridge called? |
Cartridges are either standard or P-mount, there no other version AFAIK. P-mount was made because people had a very hard time with the very fragile wire leads and also because aligning a 2-bolt cartridge takes some very special pro-tractors and gauges. There's things like overhang, vertical tracking angle, and alignment to minimize cartridge parallelism error to record groove.
On a typical tangential Toneram , the cartridge can only be perfectly parallel to the groove at one location, because as it swings the arc it changes the angle of the arm to the groove. Generally, you set the cart. for max. Parallelism on the middle of the record, this way it equalizes the error at the beginning and end.
Anyway, a standard cart with 2 bolts makes this tricky, you basically leave the bolts lightly snug then use all your tools to get everything optimized, then tighten them down.
With P-mount, the theory is you set this as a rigid parameter during manufacturing, and supposedly it's all correct when you plug it in, and there's no exposed wires.
| Clarence wrote: | | (what do I search ebay for to find a 2-bolt cartridge?)Or is it better to replace the headshell with a p-mount and use the ortofon? |
well at this point do whatever is cheapest. Assuming the original cartridge is still on the table, and you can somehow identify/verify it, you could replace just the stylus for $30. I wouldn't choose this as first choice, as the rubber suspension that supports the stylus will likely be dried out and hard after 40 years. So even if it plays , the compliance of the suspension will be degraded and it will not be performing to spec.
If you can find a P-mount head-shell for 40 bucks, I would use the Ortofon. You'll still need a VTF gauge (vertical tracking force gauge), to set the weight it is exerting on the record groove. You do this by moving the counterweight on the opposite end of the tonearm. I use one from Sure, although it's not really very accurate.
http://www.amazon.com/Shure-SFG-2-Stylus-Tracking-Force/dp/B00006I5SD
Thinking about getting a $50. digital one for myself.
The Ortofon OMP5E calls for - Recommended tracking force: 1.75 g (17.5 mN)
This is pretty delicate, and tells me it's a cart. designed for max. playback accuracy, versus a DJ cart. which is designed for maximum robustness/abuse during scratching and fast cueing. I would get some kind of gauge and verify the VTF, both for musicality and record preservation.
Or, do nothing and just use everything as-is, cost = 0$
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Sat May 30, 2015 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Clarence wrote: | The old cartridge is a AT125LC. Looks like this:
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oops, just saw this. Obviously not the original cart. from 1979 and it looks like a higher end cart although no longer available new, replaced by 440MLA @ $180.
I would still get a VTF gauge and make sure it's tracking at 1.5 grams
from Vinyl engine
Description
The only thing more impressive than the specifications of this model is the sound it delivers.
The AT125LC combines high-efficiency, para-toroidal coils with the Dual Magnet stylus assembly using a titanium-based linear contact stylus.
The flat frequency response ranges from 15Hz through to 28kHz.
The centre shield provides strikingly low inter-channel crosstalk.
Thanks in part to the individual moving magnets for each channel, the channel separation is virtually determined by that of the record itself.
Specifications
Generating element: dual magnet
Frequency response: 15 to 28,000Hz
Output: 5.0mV
Vertical tracking force: 1.0-1.8g
Stylus shape: linear contact
Stylus construction: titanium bonded
Cantilever: tapered tube
Weight: 6.2g
Replacement stylus: ATN125LC
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Clarence
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 3827
Location: Smith Mtn Lake, VA
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| Posted: Sat May 30, 2015 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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Good info. Thanks.
| draganm wrote: | | at this point do whatever is cheapest. Assuming the original cartridge is still on the table, and you can somehow identify/verify it, you could replace just the stylus for $30. I wouldn't choose this as first choice, as the rubber suspension that supports the stylus will likely be dried out and hard after 40 years. So even if it plays , the compliance of the suspension will be degraded and it will not be performing to spec. |
The original cartridge is the AT125LC pictured above.
| draganm wrote: | | If you can find a P-mount head-shell for 40 bucks, I would use the Ortofon. |
After a quick search, I don't see a P-mount headshell. But I see P-mount adapters for $14.99
| draganm wrote: | You'll still need a VTF gauge (vertical tracking force gauge), to set the weight it is exerting on the record groove. You do this by moving the counterweight on the opposite end of the tonearm. I use one from Sure, although it's not really very accurate.
http://www.amazon.com/Shure-SFG-2-Stylus-Tracking-Force/dp/B00006I5SD
Thinking about getting a $50. digital one for myself.
The Ortofon OMP5E calls for - Recommended tracking force: 1.75 g (17.5 mN)
This is pretty delicate, and tells me it's a cart. designed for max. playback accuracy, versus a DJ cart. which is designed for maximum robustness/abuse during scratching and fast cueing. I would get some kind of gauge and verify the VTF, both for musicality and record preservation. |
How does this one look? $26.99 at amazon. Good reviews...
http://www.amazon.com/Professional-Digital-Turntable-Precise-Jewellery/dp/B00BSP48HC
Off to see Rush in concert tonight.
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Sat May 30, 2015 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Clarence wrote: | | The original cartridge is the AT125LC pictured above. |
right, I missed that" original cartridge" in my mind meant "original cartridge installed at factory", but you were referring to the cartridge installed on it at time of delivery. The one that's on it is fine, assuming it's in good shape and hasn't been played for 500 hours.
| Clarence wrote: | | After a quick search, I don't see a P-mount headshell. But I see P-mount adapters for $14.99 |
I wouldn't bother with this, any adapter will throw off the overhang (put the stylus beyond the optimum "center of the circle" )
that's what I'm planning to get, 27 bucks is cheap.
| Clarence wrote: | | Off to see Rush in concert tonight. |
dam, I'm jealous, One of my favorite bands.
I wish ticket prices weren't so outrageous.
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Clarence
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 3827
Location: Smith Mtn Lake, VA
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| Posted: Sat May 30, 2015 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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Free tickets! My best friend does software for ticketmaster. Now you know what those convenience fees are used for
Tonight's set list:
FIRST SET
The Anarchist
Clockwork Angels
Headlong Flight w/ drum solo
Far Cry
The Main Monkey Business
One Little Victory
Animate
Roll The Bones
Distant Early Warning
Subdivisions
SECOND SET
Tom Sawyer
YYZ
The Spirit Of Radio
Natural Science
Jacob’s Ladder
Cygnus X-1: Book II – I. Prelude
Cygnus X-1: Book I – ?Prologue?, Part I, Part III --> DRUM SOLO
Closer To The Heart
Xanadu
2112: Parts I, II, IV & VII
ENCORES:
Lakeside Park
Anthem
What You’re Doing
Working Man (w Garden Road)
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Sat May 30, 2015 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Clarence wrote: | | Free tickets! My best friend does software for ticketmaster. Now you know what those convenience fees are used for |
free tickets ! you suck
| Clarence wrote: | Tonight's set list:
FIRST SET
The Anarchist
Clockwork Angels
Headlong Flight w/ drum solo
Far Cry
The Main Monkey Business
One Little Victory
Animate
Roll The Bones
Distant Early Warning
Subdivisions
SECOND SET
Tom Sawyer
YYZ
The Spirit Of Radio
Natural Science
Jacob’s Ladder
Cygnus X-1: Book II – I. Prelude
Cygnus X-1: Book I – ?Prologue?, Part I, Part III --> DRUM SOLO
Closer To The Heart
Xanadu
2112: Parts I, II, IV & VII
ENCORES:
Lakeside Park
Anthem
What You’re Doing
Working Man (w Garden Road) |
I could come in on the last song of the first set and be happy from there on
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El Duderino
Joined: 23 Jan 2011
Posts: 4653
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Sat May 30, 2015 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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| draganm wrote: | | I could come in on the last song of the first set and be happy from there on |
+1. I'd want to experience Neils solo though.
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Clarence
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 3827
Location: Smith Mtn Lake, VA
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2015 12:27 am Post subject: |
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Headlong Flight rocked!
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2015 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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| El Duderino wrote: | | draganm wrote: | | I could come in on the last song of the first set and be happy from there on |
+1. I'd want to experience Neils solo though. |
yeah I hear you, considering that Bonham, Moon, and others have died, I hate to miss out on hearing a solo from the last , greatest Rock drummer that's still alive and touring.
| Clarence wrote: | | Headlong Flight rocked! |
Of course it did  If you haven't seen the documentary on Rush on Netflix, watch it. Neils has not had an easy life, and it was a small miracle when he got back on stage behind his kit. I think the emotional scars are still with him though, said he absolutely hated leaving his new family to go on this tour.
Oh and Alex Lifeson, is actually Alex Zivoljecic, a Serb national, the second greatest thing about Rush after the music 
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