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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
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Location: Ottawa, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 5:22 am Post subject: |
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| draganm wrote: | | what a great suggestion. My list won't be perfect either, but it would be hard to get something worse than that Rolling Stoned mess. I'm not doing 500 either, since I won't be compiling from 270+ people, maybe 50. |
I look forward to seeing it.
| draganm wrote: | | I said early in the thread that it was probably a bunch of industry hacks and not many notable musicians , and that's exactly what it was. |
I'm not as much into music as I used to be, but I do recognize a large number of the names, many of them what I'd call big names.
Can you call out some these names that you consider "hacks" and why? I looked up about 30-40 names I didn't recognize in wikipedia and they seem to have led (or are leading) pretty important music careers. People that most people would consider "important" to the industry. The opposite of what you call "hacks".
| draganm wrote: | | there's very few musicians anyone ever heard of. |
Err, again, I don't consider myself an expert in music (I used to be big into it and now it's more of an passing interest), but even I've heard of the following artists:
Art Garfunkel
John Densmore (The Doors)
Bruce Dickinson (Iron Maiden)
Antoine "Fats" Domino
Pete Seeger
The Edge (U2)
Jeff Ament (Pearl Jam)
Billie Joe Armstrong (Green Day)
Guy Berryman (Coldplay)
Mary J. Blige
Jackson Browne
Jonny Buckland (Coldplay)
Geezer Butler (Black Sabbath)
Jerry Butler (R&B singer)
Joe Butler (The Lovin' Spoonful)
Mike Carabello (Santana)
Johnny Ramone (Ramones (1948-2004))
Melissa Etheridge
Phil Everly (Everly Brothers)
Flea (Red Hot Chili Peppers)
Chris Frantz (Talking Heads)
John Frusciante (Red Hot Chili Peppers)
Richie Furay (Buffalo Springfield)
Billy Gibbons (ZZ Top)
Kirk Hammett (Metallica)
Chris Hillman (The Byrds)
Mark Hoppus (Blink-182)
Bruce Hornsby
Tony Kanal (No Doubt)
Jorma Kaukonen (Jefferson Airplane)
Carole King
Lenny Kravitz
Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Chris Martin (Coldplay)
Michelle Phillips (The Mamas and the Papas)
Timothy B. Schmit (Eagles)
Fred Schneider (The B-52's)
Lars Ulrich (Metallica)
Steven Van Zandt
Butch Vig (Garbage, producer)
Richard Wright (Pink Floyd (1943-2008))
Adam Yauch (Beastie Boys)
That's a large percentage of the names on the list that are "musicians".
I will admit that I saw one or two names I consider a "hacks" including Yoko Ono.
If you haven't heard of most of these people, I'd say you're ill-equipped to pass judgement here at all. You seriously haven't heard of most of those musicians and you're arguing over this list? That doesn't make any sense at all. It's like you never even read the list. I think you just like to argue. I don't get it. Some are even Rock & Roll Hall of Fame members. Some big names in there.
Lots of the other non-artist people listed I also recognize from the industry just from watching a few rock documentaries over the years. Some pretty big/important names there. Not really sure how you think they're a bunch of nobodies.
Kal
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El Duderino
Joined: 23 Jan 2011
Posts: 4653
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 5:45 am Post subject: |
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| draganm wrote: | | El Duderino wrote: | I'm curious. Are you any kind of a musician? Have you formally studied music? Worked in the music business? If you're not experienced or accomplished in any of these things, its pretty hollow to lob rocks at those who have and label them as a bunch of hacks.  |
unless your daddy worked at Rolling Stone there's no reason to get nasty with the Ad Hominem attack. Yeah the list is a bunch of corporate execs and music business agents, there's very few musicians anyone ever heard of. What is it about that that made you so uptight? If you think the list is awesome then post some facts backing that up instead of attacking me. |
What the hell? There is no Ad Hominem attack in what you just quoted from me. It was a challenge, questions, and rebuttal based on YOUR musical abilities, education, and experience. OnTopic as far as music being the topic. Being as you dodged answering, I'll take it as you having little to no musical abilities, education, and experience.
There are many people in that list who I've heard of and would respect because of their talent and experience in pop and rock music. Dick Asher, Beck, Jackson Browne, Tré Cool, Clive Davis, Cameron Crowe, Dr. John, The Edge, Melissa Etheridge, Phil Everly, Flea, Billy Gibbons, Art Garfunkel, David Geffen, Bruce Hornsby, Carole King, Lenny Kravitz, Shirley Manson, Ray Manzarek, Christine McVie, Dave Navarro, Michelle Phillips, Johnny Ramone, Robbie Robertson, Chris Robinson, Rick Rubin, Paul Shaffer, Lars Ulrich, Lucinda Williams, Richard Wright.
That was just a quick once through, I'm sure I missed some. There are also many others in that list who I haven't heard of, but I'd likely respect them based on their title and position like historian, curator, etc. I don't think their 500 list is perfect and I don't agree with every choice and every position, but I think it's pretty good and I can see how just about every album is on there and what it brought to the party. I also don't think the voters are mostly a bunch of hacks.
| draganm wrote: | | IF you need to, excuse yourself from the conversation, go and pull that stick out of your ass, then come back when you're ready to play nicely. |
Now that's closer to an Ad Hominem attack. 
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 6:03 am Post subject: |
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| draganm wrote: | | I said early in the thread that it was probably a bunch of industry hacks and not many notable musicians , and that's exactly what it was. |
You made me curious, and I didn't see Kal's list, so I checked. By my count there are at least 120 recognizable musicians and members of bands in that list -- almost HALF the list. Granted, some of the bands aren't exactly A-listers (The Hives, Pulp, The Meters, etc) but they ARE presumably musicians. There were plenty of well-known musicians and members of well-known bands: Jackson Browne, Carole King, Melissa Etheridge, Art Garfunkel, Bruce Hornsby, Lenny Kravitz, Brenda Lee (!), Pete Seeger, Pearl Jam, Green Day, Black Sabbath, Santana, The Doors, Everly Brothers, Talking Heads, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Buffalo Springfield, lots of others.
Plus there were about about 12-15 singer-songwriters, pianists, guitar players, etc that I didn't count. Plus there were 25 producers, who I would bet are more in-tune with the music scene than any of us are. Looks to me like at least 160-170 of the 270 are directly involved in performing and creating / recording music.
So I don't agree with your "mostly industry hacks and business types" dis, Dragan. It looks pretty heavy in musicians to me.
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El Duderino
Joined: 23 Jan 2011
Posts: 4653
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 6:31 am Post subject: |
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| garyfritz wrote: | | Brenda Lee (!) |
The exclamation point when I scanned the list of voters would have to be Paul Shaffer. He had a 33 year run on the Letterman show and given that he played and conducted a different song at most ever commercial break as well as jamming with many of the varied musical guests the show had on each night, he'd get my vote for Mr. Music and knowing it up one side and down the other and inside out. It wouldn't surprise me if he could play a song from each of the RS500 from memory and I can't think of anyone much more worthy of being included on a list of voters.
When HD OTA broadcasts first started, I had a hobby of recording the live musical act from each nights Letterman show and then editing and splicing them together, those I deemed worthy anyway. I filled many terabyte disks and hundreds of bands and I can only image what Paul was exposed to and experienced in over 33 years sitting where he sat and doing what he did.
It kinda chaps me to see the likes of him even remotely associated as some know-nothing hack or corporate shrill.
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kal
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| Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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| draganm wrote: | | The Beatles re-defined music in their own little boy-band manner, great, they deserve and album or even 2 in the top 10, but 5? Was their music 10 times more influential or trans-formative than Pink Floyd, or Jimi Hendrix, or Chuck Berry, no f*cking way. |
Errr? That doesn't make any sense. You're confusing what the list is about / don't understand how voting or statistics work.
The list isn't a list of the BEST 500 BANDS. It's a list of the BEST 500 ALBUMS to be taken separately COMPLETELY SEPARATELY FROM EACH OTHER. How many times a specific band gets chosen is not factored in in any way.
You can't limit how many they can choose from any specific band as the results obviously wouldn't be a "Top 500 albums" list. If they limited it to one 1 album per band, it would look more like a "Rolling Stones top 500 bands". Something completely different.
Again, these are about individual ALBUMS, not BANDS.
People were asked to simply "vote for your top 50 albums". Some picked 1 Beatles album, some 2, some 3, some 4, some none. The results are what you see. The 4 Beatles albums were all definitely important/ground breaking ones in their own right. The fact that they had 4 doesn't lessen the impact of each album.
I'd argue that the fact that they have 4 in the top 10 makes them HIGHLY influential, probably more than you even think as they're basically voting against each other to some degree. While voters could certainly pick more than one beatles album, the fact that so many were ranked so highly is very telling. Just look at their stats / billboard numbers. They're staggering.
You obviously don't like the Beatles from your comment calling them a "little boy-band" right. That's fine. But your personal views of them are clouding your judgement. I also find it odd that you're calling them this, lumping them together as a one trick pony, as if all their albums were identical. Listen to those 4 albums. They're quite different from each other as any of the 273 who voted will tell you, which is why many of them did vote for these 4. These same people will probably tell you that while people like Hendrix and Chuck Berry were highly influential what they brought was "only" one influence and their albums were mostly the same. Take Hendrix. Only 3 albums, released over a span of only 18 months. There isn't much time for variety there. All 3 are listed in the RS500 list however, with his first album "The Jimi Hendrix Experience - Are You Experienced" at a very high #15 where it rightfully should be. "Axis: Bold As Love" was fairly low on the list however, where it frankly should be. He put that one out quickly to fulfill the studio obligation to have 2 albums out in 1967. "Electric Ladyland" at #55 did better because he wasn't hamstringed by the beancounters. Had more freedom and time. Great album.
Kal
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Clarence
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 3827
Location: Smith Mtn Lake, VA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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Think of more as a 80% solution list.
80% of 500 = 100 albums that any of us could remove and replace with 100 of our favorite albums to end up with a pretty darn good collection.
For me, it's probably closer to a 90% list. I could swap in 50 different picks.
I'd be interested to see everybody's list of remove these 20 and replace with these instead.
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Clarence wrote: | | I'd be interested to see everybody's list of remove these 20 and replace with these instead. |
Yeah, that would be a much more interesting discussion.
The other thing that gets me is some of the albums that people picked. I mean, if you have to pick the 25 greatest albums of all time, would YOU include Cindi Lauper? My Morning Jacket? Vampire Weekend?? (Though I noticed two of the voters were from VW, and maybe them voting for themselves was enough to get them on the list!  ) I mean, who lists those albums in their top 25??
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | Can you call out some these names that you consider "hacks" and why? I looked up about 30-40 names I didn't recognize in wikipedia and they seem to have led (or are leading) pretty important music careers. People that most people would consider "important" to the industry. The opposite of what you call "hacks".
| draganm wrote: | | there's very few musicians anyone ever heard of. |
Err, again, I don't consider myself an expert in music (I used to be big into it and now it's more of an passing interest), but even I've heard of the following artists: |
There are maybe 4 or 5 dozen notable talents in there, from a line-up of 273 people. That's why the results are sh*t, garbage in, garbage out. There are plenty of Good musicians, but to weigh in on "500 best albums" I think you need to be able to do more than just play an instrument. You should have written music that revolutionized Rock Albums, influenced others, created a new sound , etc..
Here's some examples
John Densmore (The Doors) drummer for the Doors, one of my favorite bands. Did not write any of the music or lyrics for the Doors.
Bruce Dickinson (Iron Maiden) Hired by Maiden as lead Singer, Did not write any of the music or lyrics for the Iron Maiden.
Guy Berryman (Coldplay) Bass player, bar tender, producer, and a dozen other hats. One of those "yeah he was part of the band too" guys
Mike Carabello (Santana) percussionist, did not write the hit songs for Santana
Chris Frantz (Talking Heads) drummer and producer. Could have been replaced with any other drummer or producer
Etc. Etc.
| kal wrote: | That's a large percentage of the names on the list that are "musicians".
I will admit that I saw one or two names I consider a "hacks" including Yoko Ono.
Not really sure how you think they're a bunch of nobodies.
Kal |
whether the rest are a bunch of nobodies or not, they had no business being "consultants" when so many truly great potential contributors are not on there.
| garyfritz wrote: | | You made me curious, and I didn't see Kal's list, so I checked. By my count there are at least 120 recognizable musicians and members of bands in that list -- almost HALF the list. Granted, some of the bands aren't exactly A-listers (The Hives, Pulp, The Meters, etc) but they ARE presumably musicians. . |
Right, So Almost half were musicians and Almost half of those are notable musicians. So you have 75% of people who really had no business voting on " best 500 albums".
That's why the list is not 100% garbage, it's only 70% garbage. Numbers all line up according to my score-board
And
Paul Shaffer? Are you guys joking? Yeah, he led the greatest cover band ever and he did it for 30 YEARS, WOW! ,
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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| garyfritz wrote: | | Clarence wrote: | | I'd be interested to see everybody's list of remove these 20 and replace with these instead. |
Yeah, that would be a much more interesting discussion. |
yeah i think so too
We can go there as soon as you guys concede I'm right . 
| garyfritz wrote: | | The other thing that gets me is some of the albums that people picked. I mean, if you have to pick the 25 greatest albums of all time, would YOU include Cindi Lauper? My Morning Jacket? Vampire Weekend?? (Though I noticed two of the voters were from VW, and maybe them voting for themselves was enough to get them on the list! ) I mean, who lists those albums in their top 25?? |
The people who's phone number just happened to be in the Rolling Stone Rolladex.
| Rolling Stoned Editor wrote: |
" Hey look, lets call joe-schmoe and see what his favorite albums are" |
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
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Location: Ottawa, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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| draganm wrote: | | There are plenty of Good musicians, but to weigh in on "500 best albums" I think you need to be able to do more than just play an instrument. You should have written music that revolutionized Rock Albums, influenced others, created a new sound , etc.. |
Like yourself?
You're weighing in, saying that the list is incorrect. Using your logic, you would have to meet these requirements to be able to determine was should be on the list and not. Using your logic, if you don't have these qualifications, you can't criticize the list. But you're doing that. You're saying certain notable artists are missing but to be able to know that, you'd have to meet your own requirements. This logic of yours doesn't make any sense.
| draganm wrote: | John Densmore (The Doors) drummer for the Doors, one of my favorite bands. Did not write any of the music or lyrics for the Doors.
Bruce Dickinson (Iron Maiden) Hired by Maiden as lead Singer, Did not write any of the music or lyrics for the Iron Maiden.
Guy Berryman (Coldplay) Bass player, bar tender, producer, and a dozen other hats. One of those "yeah he was part of the band too" guys
Mike Carabello (Santana) percussionist, did not write the hit songs for Santana
Chris Frantz (Talking Heads) drummer and producer. Could have been replaced with any other drummer or producer
Etc. Etc. |
Yup. Obviously all "hacks" as you put it. Because unless you write the music or lyrics, you obviously know nothing about music. They obviously should never have been asked to vote on a list like this.
The same is true for any industry I suppose right?: The best wine critics are only those that own vineyards and produce their own, the best art critics are master painters, and Roger Ebert has won multiple oscars (as otherwise how could he possibly be any good at reviewing movies?), the list goes on....
You should write Rolling Stone. Maybe next time they'll drop some of these names and talk to the real experts like yourself for votes. This must mean of course that you've got a lot of music/lyric writing experience (I didn't know that about you) as without that you're a "hack" who doesn't know good music from bad according to your logic.
This broken logic trail you're weaving is perplexing.
Kal
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Clarence
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 3827
Location: Smith Mtn Lake, VA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2015 12:42 am Post subject: |
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| garyfritz wrote: | | Clarence wrote: | | I'd be interested to see everybody's list of remove these 20 and replace with these instead. |
Yeah, that would be a much more interesting discussion.
The other thing that gets me is some of the albums that people picked. I mean, if you have to pick the 25 greatest albums of all time, would YOU include Cindi Lauper? My Morning Jacket? Vampire Weekend?? (Though I noticed two of the voters were from VW, and maybe them voting for themselves was enough to get them on the list! ) I mean, who lists those albums in their top 25?? |
Modern Vampires of the City debuted at number one on the Billboard 200, becoming Vampire Weekend's second consecutive number-one album in the United States. It received widespread acclaim and was named the best record of 2013 by several publications, while finishing second in the annual Pazz & Jop critics poll.
FWIW, I like Vampire Weekend. Probably one of only 10 "new" bands or so for the past decade that I like... including Silversun Pickups, Alabama Shakes, and Cage the Elephant.
Would they be on my Top 500? Probably not. Top 25? Definitely not.
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Clarence
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 3827
Location: Smith Mtn Lake, VA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2015 12:48 am Post subject: |
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I can't remember if I posted this earlier, but here's the RS500 list alphabetized so you can see the groupings of the bands easily (and makes it easier for me to search and X off the ones that I have):
http://loco-photo.com/rs500a.htm
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Clarence
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 3827
Location: Smith Mtn Lake, VA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2015 2:24 am Post subject: |
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| draganm wrote: | | Clarence what do you think of the sound quality of Adele 25? Well balanced or compressed to hell by the loudness wars. I read it's the latter. |
Finally got home and got a chance to spin it. Nice relaxing album after a hectic week. 180g vinyl always feels hefty.
But it sounded boomy. I have an equalizer that I usually leave in the classic smile pattern... ramp up the low bass (feeding a 15" sub) and boost the high treble. But this one sounds much better after I levelled out the 3 bass sliders and boosted the treble... brings her voice and the piano out of the clutter.
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2015 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | | draganm wrote: | | There are plenty of Good musicians, but to weigh in on "500 best albums" I think you need to be able to do more than just play an instrument. You should have written music that revolutionized Rock Albums, influenced others, created a new sound , etc.. |
Like yourself?
You're weighing in, saying that the list is incorrect. Using your logic, you would have to meet these requirements to be able to determine was should be on the list and not. Using your logic, if you don't have these qualifications, you can't criticize the list. But you're doing that. You're saying certain notable artists are missing but to be able to know that, you'd have to meet your own requirements. This logic of yours doesn't make any sense.l |
yeah maybe if I had said " only prominent musicians can criticize the list" your argument would make sense. That's not what I said is it? By "weighing in" in meant "contribute to". I didn't contribute to that list and 70% of the people they talked to shouldn't have either. It's really that simple, no need to outsmart yourself with circular logic.
| kal wrote: | | The same is true for any industry I suppose right?: The best wine critics are only those that own vineyards and produce their own, the best art critics are master painters, and Roger Ebert has won multiple oscars (as otherwise how could he possibly be any good at reviewing movies?), the list goes on.... |
Is it really that upsetting to suggest some dude who played Bass guitar for a 90's rock band and currently working as a bar tender or airline pilot might not be qualified to contribute to the " 500 best albums" list? I'm pretty sure when they do compile list of the 500 best wines they don't consult the guys who picked the grapes or ran the bottling machine.
Here's an analogy using your examples for you. The top 500 wines of all time with 2-buck-chuck in the top ten because it bought affordable wine to masses of people who otherwise would never haves tasted wine better than Mogan David . Never mind that only bums drink Mad Dog and they don't care what it tastes like.
Or how about Roger Ebert recommending Sahara as a "must see" movie? That's the equivalent of the RS500. BTW, I loved Siskel and Ebert and even though every movie they recommended wasn't my cup of tea I respected them because they would never give a thumbs up to trash and say" go see Sahara, it was GREAT!"
| kal wrote: | | You should write Rolling Stone. Maybe next time they'll drop some of these names and talk to the real experts like yourself for votes. This must mean of course that you've got a lot of music/lyric writing experience (I didn't know that about you) as without that you're a "hack" who doesn't know good music from bad according to your logic. |
Look, the list is what it is and my opinions come across as really acidic but I never said "there's absolutely no merit to anything on there". The Beatles are over-represented, some albums are too far down and some are too high up, and some albums aren't on there at all because people seem to feel that every Beatles album needs to be on there. f*ck it, I don't give 2 shits really. People are going to nominate Hillary f*cking Clinton to run for 2016 , I can't do anything about that supremely f*cking Stupid decision either.
| Clarence wrote: | | draganm wrote: | | Clarence what do you think of the sound quality of Adele 25? Well balanced or compressed to hell by the loudness wars. I read it's the latter. |
Finally got home and got a chance to spin it. Nice relaxing album after a hectic week. 180g vinyl always feels hefty.
But it sounded boomy. I have an equalizer that I usually leave in the classic smile pattern... ramp up the low bass (feeding a 15" sub) and boost the high treble. But this one sounds much better after I leveled out the 3 bass sliders and boosted the treble... brings her voice and the piano out of the clutter. |
I was afraid of that, but You bring up a very good topic Clarence. Should a dynamic equalizer be used to "fix" great albums that turned into OK or even bad albums simply because they were mastered by Recording Industry Hacks. In other words guys who simply follow a formula for what they think will sell at Target and Walmart as opposed to being artisans in their own right and seeing the beauty of an artists contribution and thinking " how can I best represent the real beauty and creativity on these tapes".
I have decided to skip the DE. For me, when I go down to listen and relax, I want to just play music, listen , and relax. I don't want to remember where the sliders need to be for this or that badly mastered LP. I mean maybe you could tape a cheat-sheet onto the clear Poly outer sleeve right? But then I would just get pissed every time I had to "fix" somebody elses f*ck-ups.
With Adelle, you'd think it would be pretty simple right? push her voice forward and leave everything else in the background unless it's directly promoting the melody, in which case you put it a little behind her voice, right? I dunno, I'm not a recording remastering Engineer but it's surprising how much of it is done so badly. Seems to have started in the 80's with the advent of digital mastering and not getting better anytime soon. Most of my 80's vinyl, even music I love like Rush, is mastered anywhere from poor to outright awful.
Eventually, the really great stuff will be re-mastered at some point down the road, at that time we hope someone like Steve Hoffman will be tapped to " get it right".
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kal
Forum Administrator
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| Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2015 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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| draganm wrote: | | Look, the list is what it is and my opinions come across as really acidic but I never said "there's absolutely no merit to anything on there". |
WTF? Sure you did! That's *ALL* you've been saying! You wrote:
| draganm wrote: | | Really, that list is a stupid joke. |
| draganm wrote: | | I think it's sh*t, and there are many, many of people who feel the same. Here's one: |
| draganm wrote: | | here are maybe 4 or 5 dozen notable talents in there, from a line-up of 273 people. That's why the results are sh*t, garbage in, garbage out. |
| draganm wrote: | BOSTON isn't on the top 500 for RS?  ? Oh well, I can safely ignore that list. |
Nobody thinks the list is perfect but you've been vocal saying that the "list is crap" which to everyone means the *WHOLE* list is crap. It's pretty black and white. The whole point that many of us have been arguing with you is that in fact the whole list isn't crap like you've been saying over and over.
Kal
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Last edited by kal on Sat Dec 05, 2015 9:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2015 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | | draganm wrote: | | Look, the list is what it is and my opinions come across as really acidic but I never said "there's absolutely no merit to anything on there". |
WTF? Sure you did! That's *ALL* you've been saying! You wrote: | Quote: | | I think it's sh*t, and there are many, many of people who feel the same. Here's one: |
| Quote: | | here are maybe 4 or 5 dozen notable talents in there, from a line-up of 273 people. That's why the results are sh*t |
Nobody thinks the list is perfect but you've been vocal saying that the "list is crap" which to means the *WHOLE* LIST IS CRAP. This should be obvious, no? THE WHOLE POINT THAT MANY OF US HAVE BEEN ARGUING WITH YOU IS THAT THE WHOLE LIST ISN'T CRAP. Not once have you said "I think the list is probably 80% right but they missed some important artist That's not the same as "the list is sh*t".You don't even hear yourself or understand what you're saying. Or just like to argue.
Kal |
80% right? I actually said 70% wrong, maybe now that I'm a better mood I might go 65% wrong . but, you really want to debate percentages? To me , a pile of crap with a few undigested cherries in it is still a pile of of crap.
to you, it's a pile of cherries that maybe smell a little funny but are "still good"
Anyway, I love to argue, might pursue a career in Politics,
but it's in the 40's here, cloudy and overcast. I'm going downstairs to listen to some vinyl. Just might throw on my mint, original Sgt. Peppers LP and see what all the fuss is about
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El Duderino
Joined: 23 Jan 2011
Posts: 4653
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2015 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| draganm wrote: | | ...simply because they were mastered by Recording Industry Hacks. .... With Adelle, you'd think it would be pretty simple right? push her voice forward and leave everything else in the background unless it's directly promoting the melody, in which case you put it a little behind her voice, right? I dunno, I'm not a recording remastering Engineer but it's surprising how much of it is done so badly. Seems to have started in the 80's with the advent of digital mastering and not getting better anytime soon. Most of my 80's vinyl, even music I love like Rush, is mastered anywhere from poor to outright awful. |
Given your vast knowledge of music and audio, and that one of your pet peeves is DR compression, you'd think you know that the loudness wars isn't because of digital mastering. It's marketing. Around the time you mention, digital playback devices came into the market bigtime. ipods, shuffle play and playlists. Consumers starting consuming songs as much as albums, and the music business is a business with competition. To some degree, the perception to most humans is that louder sounds better, especially when song A is next to song B in shuffle play. Thus began the loudness wars.
Also, your jab at recording engineers as bunch of 'hacks' is largely off base. Recording Engineers are among the biggest critics of the loudness wars, but they are also employees who want a paycheck. I'm an Engineer (not recording), and hardly a week goes by where I'm not asked and tasked with doing something I think is stupid, wrong, or that I don't agree with. If I want to keep collecting that paycheck, I'm going to do my best to deliver what my boss or client wants, not what I want.
You can bet that Adelle was at the mastering table, as well as the Recording Engineers boss and producer. If Adelle and the studio wasn't happy with the sound of 25, they were likely directing the Recording Engineer to dial something up to 11 and if he didn't comply or refused on grounds of principle, then he gets fired and replaced. If Adelle is happy with the recording, what the hell. It's her name and picture on the cover and in so much as it's a business, it was hugely successful.
Now, it may be that digital tools in the workflow enable and afford such shenanigans, but just because a tool is overused or misused doesn't mean the tool is at fault.
Last edited by El Duderino on Sat Dec 05, 2015 9:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2015 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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| draganm wrote: | | I actually said 70% wrong, maybe now that I'm a better mood I might go 65% wrong . but, you really want to debate percentages? |
I don't. You keep changing your mind.
| draganm wrote: | | Anyway, I love to argue |
I don't. I like to have logical back and forth discussions.
For that reason, I'm outta here.
Kal
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Last edited by kal on Sun Dec 06, 2015 2:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2015 2:00 am Post subject: |
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| Clarence wrote: | FWIW, I like Vampire Weekend. Probably one of only 10 "new" bands or so for the past decade that I like... including Silversun Pickups, Alabama Shakes, and Cage the Elephant.
Would they be on my Top 500? Probably not. Top 25? Definitely not. |
FWIW, I like several VW songs too. I like quite a few newer bands. But yes, definitely not a top-25 pick. But then neither is Cyndi Lauper...
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2015 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| El Duderino wrote: | | Now, it may be that digital tools in the workflow enable and afford such shenanigans, but just because a tool is overused or misused doesn't mean the tool is at fault. |
that's all I was saying in the first place, the transition to digital formats allowed much easier bastardization of recorded music
| El Duderino wrote: | | Also, your jab at recording engineers as bunch of 'hacks' is largely off base. Recording Engineers are among the biggest critics of the loudness wars, but they are also employees who want a paycheck.You can bet that Adelle was at the mastering table, as well as the Recording Engineers boss and producer. If Adelle and the studio wasn't happy with the sound of 25, they were likely directing the Recording Engineer to dial something up to 11 and if he didn't comply or refused on grounds of principle, then he gets fired and replaced. If Adelle is happy with the recording, what the hell. It's her name and picture on the cover and in so much as it's a business, it was hugely successful. |
well It would seem we're both speculating , who knows of Adelle was there or not, my guess is not. My money is on her manager, the sales rep for the Record label, the engineer, and general manager for the studio. A quick search seems to show plenty of guilt to go around
http://noisey.vice.com/en_uk/read/the-loudness-war-is-nearly-over
| Quote: | Who was responsible for starting the loudness wars, record labels or musicians?
Both! In fact, mastering engineers like myself were part of it, too. Way back when I started, there was no way an artist could compare the results from an studio session to the final master. Hypothetically, you could have someone whose sound was perfect and you as an engineer didn’t really have anything to add to it, except if you turned it up slightly. They’d get home and compare it to their original and think “wow, this sounds better”, they wouldn’t have realised it was a trick. Not everyone did that of course, but it happened. So everyone did their bit.And are there specific producers that are repeat offenders?
Rick Rubin, he’s done Death Magnetic and The Red Hot Chili Peppers. He’s claimed that the more you turn it up the more people like it. Another producer known for a loud sound is Chris Lord Alge, but there were some recent remasters of Green Day’s work that sound better than the original CD masters, showing that his original mixes were more dynamic. Kanye’s last two albums are so distorted, some people might say it’s deliberate but a friend of mine said “if that’s a production decision it’s one based on ignorance”. |
Seems to me even some of the terminology is confusing. If Dynamics are the difference between the softest and loudest parts of the music and when everything is loud those peaks get clipped and valleys flattened out, then that's compression. He's confusing recording levels with loudness. Greendays original CD wasn't more dynamic, it was less Dynamic= compressed, because the level controls on all the frequencies were pushed up. This is from a recording Engineer, you'd think he'd have at least the terminology right
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