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dropzone7
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 1069
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:51 am Post subject: |
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Guys, I haven't moved the sliders at all. All I did so far was select the "middle" picture setting. There is low, middle, high, user 1, user2. Gamma is set at standard with other choices of A, B, C.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:57 am Post subject: |
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| dropzone7 wrote: | | Guys, I haven't moved the sliders at all. All I did so far was select the "middle" picture setting. There is low, middle, high, user 1, user2. Gamma is set at standard with other choices of A, B, C. |
LOL, well how about that. I big conversation over a pile of crap. 
I usually never assume anything and this is why.
Anyways Hog, I'd still like to know what you think lowering that slider would do for the green intensity.....
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dropzone7
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 1069
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:01 am Post subject: |
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Well, that's not to say that the last user didn't move the sliders...I haven't set things back to default which is probably what I will do once I get a CMS, and a Chromapure licence, and a better meter, and and and it never ends...
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benareeno
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 1614
Location: ottawa, canada
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:02 am Post subject: |
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you said earlier that you like the picture...if so, watch it. It's not about what others think...if you like it, that should be good enough.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:07 am Post subject: |
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| benareeno wrote: | | you said earlier that you like the picture...if so, watch it. It's not about what others think...if you like it, that should be good enough. |
I'll give you a big thumbs up on that suggestion. If you like what you see then enjoy....
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:34 am Post subject: |
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| HogPilot wrote: | | Just to re-iterate, we're talking about chaging the quality of the green that the projector creates (hue, saturation and luminance) - the RGB controls only change how much of that green is mixed to create white. |
Here's a great great analogy by Forum member Gary Fritz to explain this (that I used in my greyscale guide). I really liked this explanation as I found it explained the concept well so I quoted it exactly:
"Your projector or TV must display the exact three primary colours as set by standards. If it doesn't, your colours will be wrong. Why? Think of your display as a blind paint-by-number artist. He's got 3 pots of paint (Red, Green, Blue), and he just paints whatever colour the signal tells him. If the video signal says to paint pure green, he goes to his green pot and uses that. If the signal has a yellow colour, he mixes red and green together. Now imagine what would happen if somebody swiped his green paint and substituted a pot of pink paint. He's a blind painter, so he can't correct for the bad colour. Obviously his greens would be wrong; grass would be pink. But in addition ALL colours that included any green would also be wrong. Since all colours except pure red, pure blue, and shades of pure magenta include SOME green, this means that ALL other colours will be wrong."
Kal
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:39 am Post subject: |
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| dropzone7 wrote: | | I have no clue how it works other than what you guys have told me which is all pretty much bad at this point. |
No, but it would certainly sound that way wouldn't it? If it was truly bad then the RS1 would never have gotten the praise it did. It was the one thing that videophiles loved to pick at when it first came out because it was the one thing that they could have fixed or done better without that much effort (or so the story goes).
The annoyance that people had too was the cost to fix it with an external processor. That was a lot of money to basically fix "one thing".
Will the average person notice it? Nope. Not in a million years.
You've got a nice projector that still throws a better picture than probably 99% of the stuff that people watch out there. Enjoy it.
Kal
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dropzone7
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 1069
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:48 am Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | | dropzone7 wrote: | | I have no clue how it works other than what you guys have told me which is all pretty much bad at this point. |
No, but it would certainly sound that way wouldn't it? If it was truly bad then the RS1 would never have gotten the praise it did. It was the one thing that videophiles loved to pick at when it first came out because it was the one thing that they could have fixed or done better without that much effort (or so the story goes).
The annoyance that people had too was the cost to fix it with an external processor. That was a lot of money to basically fix "one thing".
Will the average person notice it? Nope. Not in a million years.
You've got a nice projector that still throws a better picture than probably 99% of the stuff that people watch out there. Enjoy it.
Kal |
Thanks, I think it was the right decision for what I wanted to spend right now. I thought I had found a Radiance XD for a great price but turns out the guy sold it and had not updated the listing to reflect that. Bummer. I'm looking for so many things right now because going CIH pretty much means starting over. It's sad what I was able to get for my equipment over the last few months of selling bit by bit. I'm having to acquire the new (used, new to me) stuff as I can afford it. My wife has seen the image on this RS1 and already likes it better than my NEC which I expected as she likes a bright picture. I just want to get CIH working in my room first, then I can nitpick the image to death and upgrade the projector later.
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benareeno
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 1614
Location: ottawa, canada
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:26 am Post subject: |
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how about going htpc? You may be able to do all of this for a very cheap price..
I thought I had read that color correction is possible with an htpc, and I'm sure constant height is also possible. It's amazing how much functionality you can get with a cheap pc, but the problem is that they can be difficult to deal with sometimes.
Hey...an NEC has all kinds of problems with it's image...and yet, it's quite nice to watch. And it's primaries are fairly good, but certainly not as good as that Runco DLP.
And don't fret over constant height...try watching 16:9 in your 2.35 screen...it usually works just fine that way.
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:55 am Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | | Here's a great great analogy by Forum member Gary Fritz to explain this (that I used in my greyscale guide). I really liked this explanation as I found it explained the concept well so I quoted it exactly: |
Well, not exactly. *I* didn't spell "color" wrong.  
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:04 am Post subject: |
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| garyfritz wrote: | | kal wrote: | | Here's a great great analogy by Forum member Gary Fritz to explain this (that I used in my greyscale guide). I really liked this explanation as I found it explained the concept well so I quoted it exactly: |
Well, not exactly. *I* didn't spell "color" wrong. |
Ha! Good point!  I guess I did change that to be consistent with the rest of the guide! 
You know, it's funny ... I must have had at least 10-20 emails in the first few months after I posted the guide from people who were kind enough to email me typo corrections which I appreciated. The unfortunate part was about about 1/3 of them also included the word "colour" as a word I mis-spelled.
I remember when I wrote it I thought to myself "should I stick to American spelling??". Screw that. I haven't done that anywhere else on site! (At least not on purpose).
Kal
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HogPilot
Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383
TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | | Anyways Hog, I'd still like to know what you think lowering that slider would do for the green intensity..... |
Adjusting that control would remove green from white, making it more magenta. It would not affect anything that's green like grass or trees. You can verify this on your tv (assuming the controls work properly) by adjusting the green gain/bias (or whatever the white balance controls are called) with some green material on the screen.
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| ecrabb wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure. |
He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.
SC |
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| HogPilot wrote: | | Adjusting that control would remove green from white, making it more magenta. It would not affect anything that's green like grass or trees. |
If you reduce the amount of green, you'll change EVERY color except pure red, pure blue, and shades of pure magenta. All other colors contain some green.
*Pure* green would just get dimmer, but it WOULD change. But grass & trees isn't *pure* green so it would start to turn magenta.
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HogPilot
Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383
TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD
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| Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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| garyfritz wrote: | | HogPilot wrote: | | Adjusting that control would remove green from white, making it more magenta. It would not affect anything that's green like grass or trees. |
If you reduce the amount of green, you'll change EVERY color except pure red, pure blue, and shades of pure magenta. All other colors contain some green.
*Pure* green would just get dimmer, but it WOULD change. But grass & trees isn't *pure* green so it would start to turn magenta. |
White balance controls don't have the range to allow this to happen. I actually tested it on a Samsung LCD and my Pioneer plasma before posting - the most you can do is totally screw up the white balance long before you notice any appreciable change in green.
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| ecrabb wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure. |
He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.
SC |
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting that the conversation has led here, because this is more of what I was talking about. I went to 1 of my LCDs and
adjusted the green bias and there was a very noticeable change in the green and also the rest of the screen. As the green
was increased the overall image was given a green overcast. In tv repair we call this washout. And this is what I was
assuming dropzone was seeing, especially since he said he fiddled with some internal controls and resolved it. Now I'm
guessing Kal was assuming he was seeing something else which is why he said there was no control for it. But there was a
control for what drop saw.He fiddled with it..it changed..it's there.Problem is, none of
us except Drop saw what he saw but what ever he saw, the internal control fixed it, and thats a fact. And here's the funny
part, my post about the internal controls was merely to say that they were there, not that they would magically fix anything.
But you calibration freaks seem to want to jump up and down as soon as the word color is brought up. I purposely stay out of
those conversations because they usually end up in a circle jerk with back and forth bickering. Kal has it right when he
says that screenshots are a waste of time since each individual could be seeing something different depending on their display.
Now I have never claimed to be any type of a calibration expert but I do know what the internal adjustments of different
displays do. Hell, I've been repairing these displays for decades including newer technology and they occasionally need to
have the colors reset. But I dont get involved in external processors and calibration equipment so I dont comment on it.
Which is why I repeatedly said I'm not talking about gamut and altering primary's in my posts.I was merely saying that the
internal adjustment would increase the overall intensity (not just green) of green in the image, which it does. At no point
did I say it would fix any other issues.
So the "FACT" is, dropzone fiddled with something in his projector that did alter the image and the only thing in there that
I could see in the service manual was color temp settings which included the RGB sliders. That was my point. Nothing more,
nothing less.
So if you calibration freaks want to have your circle jerk conversations I will gladly take my usual position and chuckle as
I scroll through the posts......but if the occasion arises where there may be an internal adjustment that may help with the
problem they are having, I'm going to post it, so just leave me the f*ck alone. I wont get involved in calibration discussions
as I seem to have somehow got sucked into one here.
So unless someone wants to post something to get me fired up again, We may now resume the original discussion on CIH.....
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | | As the green was increased the overall image was given a green overcast. In tv repair we call this washout. And this is what I was assuming dropzone was seeing, especially since he said he fiddled with some internal controls and resolved it. Now I'm guessing Kal was assuming he was seeing something else which is why he said there was no control for it. |
Actually Drop didn't originally mention seeing any issues at all, just that he had recently bought an RS1 and that he was happy with it. He actually mentioned "how natural looking the colors are".
See: http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=325381#325381
Ben then pointed out that the primaries were incorrect.
I then mentioned that they cannot be adjusted in the unit itself (external processor must be used).
You quoted our comments about how primaries can't be adjusted with statements like "the projector has adjustments for colour balance", which is true, but not what we were talking about in text you quoted. Hence the reason everyone was/is confused and were continually trying to correct your statements. You were talking about something completely different. Most people do not understand that primary colours and colour intensity are not the same thing so most assumed (I certainly did) that you were confusing the two.
Drop was happy with his RS1 until we pointed a few things out. (Sorry about that Drop!)
Back to CIH!
Kal
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My basement/HT/bar/brewery build 2.0
Last edited by kal on Thu Nov 24, 2011 5:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| dropzone7 wrote: |
I wouldn't call it "fake" looking in the least. In "middle" color temp and with green dialed down some I wouldn't say the greens are "intolerable" at all. |
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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| dropzone7 wrote: | | There are settings on the unit that will immediately make the picture look like that first oversaturated, neon looking image for sure. |
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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Not sure why you're re-posting comments from drop. The second one was something he said *AFTER* we said primaries can't be adjusted to which we corrected him to let him know that there are no settings to adjust primaries.
I posted my original comments *BEFORE* he posted either of those 2 posts so again, I wasn't making any assumptions. Both Ben and my comments about non-adjustable incorrect primaries were made right after Drop said "how natural looking the colors are".
Context and order matters.
Kal
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Last edited by kal on Thu Nov 24, 2011 5:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | [
You quoted our comments about how primaries can't be adjusted with statements like "the projector has adjustments for colour balance", which is true, but not what we were talking about in text you quoted. Hence the reason everyone was/is confused and were continually trying to correct your statements. You were talking about something completely different. Most people do not understand that primary colours and colour intensity are not the same thing so most assumed (I certainly did) that you were confusing the two.
Kal |
Exactly, which is why I repeated try to say thats not what I was talking about and kept being told that I was. When I mentioned primary's can't be adjusted I meant in the projection device only and was not referring to external processing(which I dont discuss) but anyways, Enough of this. By all means continue with your quest...
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