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benareeno
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 1614
Location: ottawa, canada
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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group hug....yes! Feels good 
My only motivation is a quest for the truth...is crt the best?? Maybe...maybe not. I own one..i buy and sell digitals all the time too...and I compare them in the same room with the same viewing material etc.etc... I can safely say that digital is quite clearly better than crt in some scenes and some areas. And not by opinion either...by measurable fact...and in some cases, opinion.
I think I was a pioneer of the color analyzer on this forum...as well as blue defocus for better greyscale tracking...filtered lenses for primaries...etc. I was in kal's theater encouraging him to defocus blue...and defocus it more...and more. He wrote the greyscale guide with my color analyzer after receiving my tutelage on how it works. I am not a pro...but I understand color...proper color, proper primaries and what these things mean to a good picture.
It seems that the concensus is that the JVC is the be all...it may be, in fact. But, I think dlp deserves a look too. I could definitely be wrong...but if I have them in my basement theater, I will find the truth.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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| HogPilot wrote: |
| macgyver655 wrote: | | My post on the internal adjustment of the RS was to point out that to much of a particular color in the projected image can be brought down with the internal adjustment in the projector itself. |
they only coarsely control RGB as they pertain to mixing to create grey/white. . |
Correct.
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benareeno
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 1614
Location: ottawa, canada
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | | kal wrote: | The RS1 does not have a full CMS so any adjustments you make would be to controls that affect all colours. The only way to do it right is when an external video processor that adds that capability.
Kal |
It has individual color adjustment in the service menu. |
Funny....then why did you reply to Kal's statement with the one above?
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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| benareeno wrote: | | macgyver655 wrote: | | kal wrote: | The RS1 does not have a full CMS so any adjustments you make would be to controls that affect all colours. The only way to do it right is when an external video processor that adds that capability.
Kal |
It has individual color adjustment in the service menu. |
Funny....then why did you reply to Kal's statement with the one above? |
Right, I stated that it has individual color adjustment, which it does. In his post he states "so any adjustments you make would be to controls that affect all colour". He is saying any adjustment is for all colors and I was saying there are adjustment for individual colors....... Right?
Unless I misinterpreted what he is saying but thats what it reads......
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benareeno
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 1614
Location: ottawa, canada
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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saying that there is individual adjustments implies that you can adjust an individual color aka a primary....a color on its own, . This is not the case...
Those adjustments are color adjustments which would only effect greyscale. How much of each color are at the high and low end of the scale...primary color adjustment is not done. And you clearly suggest that it is...you clearly don't know what you're talking about.
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HogPilot
Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383
TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | | benareeno wrote: | | macgyver655 wrote: | | kal wrote: | The RS1 does not have a full CMS so any adjustments you make would be to controls that affect all colours. The only way to do it right is when an external video processor that adds that capability.
Kal |
It has individual color adjustment in the service menu. |
Funny....then why did you reply to Kal's statement with the one above? |
Right, I stated that it has individual color adjustment, which it does. In his post he states "so any adjustments you make would be to controls that affect all colour". He is saying any adjustment is for all colors and I was saying there are adjustment for individual colors....... Right?
Unless I misinterpreted what he is saying but thats what it reads...... |
You're probably misunderstanding. Kal's statement was specifically regarding the RS1's gamut, which can only be changed with the generic "color" control in the normal user menu (without the use of an external VP). However changing that one control simultaneously increases or decreases the saturation and Y of all the primaries. This is what he meant when he said "any adjustments you make would be to controls that affect all colour."
The controls that you're talking about - the RGB controls that I mentioned - have nothing to do with gamut. They adjust the overall mix of red, green, and blue to create white ONLY. The red control cannot change the qualities of red, and the same goes for green and blue. So no, those controls have nothing to do with the projector's gamut as Kal was referencing.
Don't worry, it's a distinction that eluded me for a while as I was trying to learn how to calibrate digitals.
_________________
| ecrabb wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure. |
He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.
SC |
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, and my post on these controls said nothing and did not pertain to gamut. You seem to have assumed my comment pertained to something other then what it was intended for. Dropzone was discussing a color push.
And apparently I did misunderstand Kal's post but my response was more to dropzones post. You can reduce the overall color intensity with the internal control. And that's where my comment should be taken.
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HogPilot
Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383
TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | Ok, and my post on these controls said nothing and did not pertain to gamut. You seem to have assumed my comment pertained to something other then what it was intended for. Dropzone was discussing a color push.
And apparently I did misunderstand Kal's post but my response was more to dropzones post. You can reduce the overall color intensity with the internal control. And that's where my comment should be taken. |
The entire conversation was about gamut. dropzone did make a comment in reply in which he said he had tweaked the color temp and "turned down green" (or something to that effect) in reference to the pictures of oversaturated greens that were posted. kal correctly replied that no such gamut controls (for "turning down green") exist in the RS1 or RS2. When you said that they do exist, in the service menu, this was incorrect, and again was in direct response to a conversation about gamut.
The conversation was never about white point, which is the only thing that those RGB controls are good for adjusting; even then, they're about useless.
_________________
| ecrabb wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure. |
He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.
SC |
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benareeno
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 1614
Location: ottawa, canada
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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Well...you quoted kal into your reply about the service menu. It seems what kal is talking about is very straightforward and obvious...now you think he or I misinterpreted you? I think you just didn't get it....and I still think you don't get it.
The only way to lower "color intensity" is to lower the color control...which would lower all colors. To go into the SM and lower any color, would do nothing to it's primary value. It would further do nothing to alleviate a color push.
Color push usually comes from incorrect color decoding....which is often fixed by lowering the color control of the projector. never fixed by adjusting greyscale...as these items in the SM do. And lowering the color control would lower the push at the expense of all colors.
I would add that in any given scene, you may be able to get the push out for that scene by adjusting the sliders in the sm...but you would definitely be screwing up your greyscale somewhere else..that's a guarantee.
So...either way, you're essentially off the mark.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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| dropzone7 wrote: |
I wouldn't call it "fake" looking in the least. In "middle" color temp and with green dialed down some I wouldn't say the greens are "intolerable" at all. |
I'm assuming he dialed down the green in the projector.
Apparently were are all discussing something different so I'll leave it at that. And no need to respond with what he is really doing.
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HogPilot
Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383
TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | | dropzone7 wrote: |
I wouldn't call it "fake" looking in the least. In "middle" color temp and with green dialed down some I wouldn't say the greens are "intolerable" at all. |
I'm assuming he dialed down the green in the projector. |
I know you're a smart guy, but in this case you clearly lack an understanding of 1) how the RS1's controls work, and 2) what "dialing down green" would entail. Whatever he did, I guarantee you he did NOT properly desaturate green with the RS1's on-board controls. As I already said in my last post (I guess you missed it):
| HogPilot wrote: | | dropzone did make a comment in reply in which he said he had tweaked the color temp and "turned down green" (or something to that effect) in reference to the pictures of oversaturated greens that were posted. kal correctly replied that no such gamut controls (for "turning down green") exist in the RS1 or RS2. When you said that they do exist, in the service menu, this was incorrect, and again was in direct response to a conversation about gamut. |
| macgyver655 wrote: | | Apparently were are all discussing something different so I'll leave it at that. And no need to respond with what he is really doing. |
No, we're discussing the exact same thing, you're simply wrong. And I'm being neither argumentative nor flippant in saying so, simply stating a fact. I honestly think you're a very intelligent person, so I hope you don't take it personally that I'm saying you're wrong on this.
_________________
| ecrabb wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure. |
He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.
SC |
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benareeno
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 1614
Location: ottawa, canada
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:01 am Post subject: |
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I think you're intelligent too...and also wrong...no matter which way you slice it.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:04 am Post subject: |
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Ok, I'll digress on this one. I'm am apparently misunderstanding something here.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:08 am Post subject: |
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So let me flip to a question then. What did he turn down to make the green push look better? 
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dropzone7
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 1069
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:37 am Post subject: |
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Wow, sorry guys, I feel like I started WWIII here! I haven't spent more than an hour with this projector so I have no clue how it works other than what you guys have told me which is all pretty much bad at this point. Let me just say that I yield to all of your collective superior intellects.
_________________
"Coffee is for Closers."
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HogPilot
Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383
TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:40 am Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | | So let me flip to a question then. What did he turn down to make the green push look better? |
I'm not sure, we should probably ask him. As I said before, it's possible to use the color control, which simultaneously desaturates and dims all of the primaries, but that's a losing proposition as the primaries are not equally oversaturated to begin with. Believe me, this issue was beaten to death (and then some) when the RS1 originally came out. There is absolutely no way to properly fix the projector's primaries (I won't use the term "colors" so as to avoid confusion) without the use of an external video processor. I guarantee that, whatever he did to have the appearance of fixing the greens in the particular material he was using, he caused some other unintended but ill effect on the picture elsewhere. Just to re-iterate, we're talking about chaging the quality of the green that the projector creates (hue, saturation and luminance) - the RGB controls only change how much of that green is mixed to create white. They can't change the type of green that gets mixed.
_________________
| ecrabb wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure. |
He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.
SC |
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HogPilot
Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 2383
TV/Projector: Vizio P702ui-B3, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:41 am Post subject: |
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| dropzone7 wrote: | | Wow, sorry guys, I feel like I started WWIII here! I haven't spent more than an hour with this projector so I have no clue how it works other than what you guys have told me which is all pretty much bad at this point. Let me just say that I yield to all of your collective superior intellects. |
Dude don't worry, the stuff we're talking about is nitpicky stuff. It's still a great projector - enjoy it and stop listening to us discuss the little details!
_________________
| ecrabb wrote: | | Curt Palme wrote: | | Interesting, Mac isn't returning my emails. Go figure. |
He's mad at us for making Hog a moderator. He took his ball and went home.
SC |
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dropzone7
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 1069
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:43 am Post subject: |
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| HogPilot wrote: | | dropzone7 wrote: | | Wow, sorry guys, I feel like I started WWIII here! I haven't spent more than an hour with this projector so I have no clue how it works other than what you guys have told me which is all pretty much bad at this point. Let me just say that I yield to all of your collective superior intellects. |
Dude don't worry, the stuff we're talking about is nitpicky stuff. It's still a great projector - enjoy it and stop listening to us discuss the little details! |
Too late...I'm in the fetal position mumbling something about needing a Radiance or it's all fubar! By the way, congrats on the new house.
_________________
"Coffee is for Closers."
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:48 am Post subject: |
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| HogPilot wrote: | | macgyver655 wrote: | | So let me flip to a question then. What did he turn down to make the green push look better? |
I'm not sure, we should probably ask him. As I said before, it's possible to use the color control, which simultaneously desaturates and dims all of the primaries, but that's a losing proposition as the primaries are not equally oversaturated to begin with. Believe me, this issue was beaten to death (and then some) when the RS1 originally came out. There is absolutely no way to properly fix the projector's primaries (I won't use the term "colors" so as to avoid confusion) without the use of an external video processor. I guarantee that, whatever he did to have the appearance of fixing the greens in the particular material he was using, he caused some other unintended but ill effect on the picture elsewhere. Just to re-iterate, we're talking about chaging the quality of the green that the projector creates (hue, saturation and luminance) - the RGB controls only change how much of that green is mixed to create white. They can't change the type of green that gets mixed. |
Ok, I'm agreeing with you on the issue that those controls are not fixing primary issues. Never said that. And I agree that a processor is needed to fix primaries.
Now where you say this"I guarantee that, whatever he did to have the appearance of fixing the greens in the particular material he was using, he caused some other unintended but ill effect on the picture elsewhere" unless there was already an issue where what he did resolved that also, correct?
You also say"Just to re-iterate, we're talking about chaging the quality of the green that the projector creates (hue, saturation and luminance) - the RGB controls only change how much of that green is mixed to create white." Thats not what I've been talking about.
And I also agree with this " They can't change the type of green that gets mixed" and never said that.
So what would lowering the green slider do to the green only light intensity?
Hey Drop, did you adjust that green slider?
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:49 am Post subject: |
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| dropzone7 wrote: | | HogPilot wrote: | | dropzone7 wrote: | | Wow, sorry guys, I feel like I started WWIII here! I haven't spent more than an hour with this projector so I have no clue how it works other than what you guys have told me which is all pretty much bad at this point. Let me just say that I yield to all of your collective superior intellects. |
Dude don't worry, the stuff we're talking about is nitpicky stuff. It's still a great projector - enjoy it and stop listening to us discuss the little details! |
Too late...I'm in the fetal position mumbling something about needing a Radiance or it's all fubar! By the way, congrats on the new house. |
Yeah Drop, dont worry about us rambling idiots....LOL. 
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