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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:00 am Post subject: OT for the HP laptop lovers.....batteries |
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I have a ZX5000 HP laptop with the famous "no battery charging problem". I don't really care as it only needs to run on battery power once in a blue moon. I got a new battery for it thinking that it was the problem. NO DICE BABY. It seems as though the battery charging circuit on the MB has failed. The laptop workes perfectly on external power. I have plenty of battery chargers suitable for the task of charging the battery on the bench but the battery has a 8 pin interface and I cant seem to find the pin-out of it and there is no markings on it. The battery is completely flat so I can't probe for power.
Anyone have any thoughts on which pins I should juse to jam some juice into this pig 
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Tinman
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 1326
Location: Carson City Nevada
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:16 am Post subject: |
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That's why you have a no charge, Stefuel. The battery MUST have a minimum charge or the protect circuit will not see it.
I used to bring up lithium batteries on a PS a bit, THEN the laptop would do it's thing.
Most batts use pins 1 and 8 as the plus and minus. But don't ask me which way around. Can you measure on the laptop pins?
Marc
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:26 am Post subject: |
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I am showing enough with a DMM to see + and - and it's on the outer most pins. Heck wadda I got to loose.
I kinda thought that might be the case so I'll poke some in and give it a shot.
So you're back and doing what??? helping people again
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:54 am Post subject: |
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The battery is getting stuffed as we speak. This wicked low battery is probably the reason that the HP battery check utility couldn't even see it. It will probably take a while for it to even start to come up this way. I'll check it every 15 minutes to see if it's coming up and when it has something readable I'll pop it back in the laptop.
Thanks,
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Last edited by stefuel on Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:57 am; edited 1 time in total
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:09 am Post subject: |
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If its Li Ion and you let it get down that far its probably rooted now.
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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| CasetheCorvetteman wrote: | | If its Li Ion and you let it get down that far its probably rooted now. |
It's starting to look like you win the boobie prize.
I fed it 250 milliamps of 18 vdc for close to 8 hours and nothing.
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6326
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:24 am Post subject: |
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Yeah mate Li Ion are simular in some ways to lead acid batteries in that they work absolute best when they are kept as close to full as possible.
If you ever use cordless power tools and have anything newish ( i know Hitachi has had this a fair while ) you can use the tool for hours and then youll notice it will just cut out with what seems like still loads of power, and this is done to prevent discharging the battery below a certain point to increase its life.
The best thing i reckon anyone can do for phones and laptops is have them on charge when ever it is convenient, dont go overboard obviously, but never wait til the battery is below half to recharge it!! Keep it as full as possible.
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:38 am Post subject: |
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OK, I was gonna post this a while ago, but since it's been brought up... what are the rules for Li Ion batteries?
I've heard:
-lifespan of them has nothing to do with usage, it has simply to do with age
-don't leave the batteries in the charger for long periods of time, that will kill them.
One thing is for sure: They don't last 1000 charges. I'm getting maybe 100-200 out of the AAs I've had here. Tempted to take them back to Costco for a refund or warranty exchange. 
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Tinman
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 1326
Location: Carson City Nevada
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| Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 4:34 am Post subject: |
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| stefuel wrote: | | CasetheCorvetteman wrote: | | If its Li Ion and you let it get down that far its probably rooted now. |
It's starting to look like you win the boobie prize.
I fed it 250 milliamps of 18 vdc for close to 8 hours and nothing. |
Yep. Once they reach below minimum charge they cut off completely for safety. Li-Ion cells can explode if charged from too low a state.
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
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Location: Australia
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| Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 6:31 am Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | OK, I was gonna post this a while ago, but since it's been brought up... what are the rules for Li Ion batteries?
I've heard:
-lifespan of them has nothing to do with usage, it has simply to do with age
-don't leave the batteries in the charger for long periods of time, that will kill them.
One thing is for sure: They don't last 1000 charges. I'm getting maybe 100-200 out of the AAs I've had here. Tempted to take them back to Costco for a refund or warranty exchange. |
Curt id be hard pressed to say they dont go 1,000 charges, i guess it depends on what sort of battery and the usage!! I know they are FN useless in NEC RC-6051 remotes!!  ( on the package, it probably says UP TO 1,000 charges!! That could mean anything!! )
As an example for you, i have had my Milwaukee V28 cordless 28 volt tools for around about 4.5 years, and the Hitachi 18 volt tools for abit under 4 years. The Milwaukee batteries ( both of ) are now pretty near useless in the angle grinder, but still ok for very small jobs on the other tools. They started out with a 2 year or 2,000 charge warranty, and its clearly over 2 years, but also would be over 2,000 charges by now as well. The Hitachi i have 2 different tools, and 4 batteries ( 2x 1.5Ah, and 2x 3Ah, all 18 volts and all fit the same tools ) i carry one of each battery with each tool, all 4 batteries still going VERY strong, and all 4 will have easily done over 1,000 charges cause after they get abit use, they go straight on the charger no matter what the use was, and they get kept as close to full as i can, which is something i didnt do with the Milwaukee from the start cause i didnt know then what i knew 12 months later.
The difference between these two is the Hitachi will cut the power at a level that still seems like it has loads of punch, the Milwaukee would run til it was dead. And i reckon that is the killer.
So having said all that, and sorry it got abit longer than id hoped, you may see that leaving them in the charger doesnt seem to hurt them provided the charger is the one for the job, and lifespan seems to be dictated more so by how full you keep them.
| Tinman wrote: |
Yep. Once they reach below minimum charge they cut off completely for safety. Li-Ion cells can explode if charged from too low a state. |
Yeah i read all that too, apparently when handled wrong they can be quite dangerous!!
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:44 am Post subject: |
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| Tinman wrote: | | stefuel wrote: | | CasetheCorvetteman wrote: | | If its Li Ion and you let it get down that far its probably rooted now. |
It's starting to look like you win the boobie prize.
I fed it 250 milliamps of 18 vdc for close to 8 hours and nothing. |
Yep. Once they reach below minimum charge they cut off completely for safety. Li-Ion cells can explode if charged from too low a state. |
If that is the case then that would explain why the HP battery check utility couldn't see the battery. I hate the idea of buying another new battery for a experiment. This one was new but was left in the laptop for a couple of years when the DC power jack failed. In fact this battery was bought because it was suspect until it was discovered that the DC power jack had failed. I just fixed the jack over the weekend because I needed a laptop to run some diagnostic software for my diesel pickup. I don't think I can get it up to 60 mph on a extension cord
Looks like I will be ebaying the cheapest battery I can find.
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barclay66
Joined: 27 Jun 2011
Posts: 1304
Location: Germany
TV/Projector: Marquee 9500 Ultra
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| Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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Hi,
I just would like to mention that (to my knowledge) all LiIon laptop batteries contain a controller and charging circuitry. Usually there is no direct connection from the battery's outer connector to the battery cells themselves.
You can see an example here: http://www.public-domain-image.com/full-image/objects-public-domain-images-pictures/electronics-devices-public-domain-images-pictures/computer-components-pictures/laptop-battery-charger-circuit-board.jpg-royalty-free-stock-photo.html
The controller "talks" to the laptop's mainboard via SMB Bus (two wire lik I2C) and e.g. reports about the battery's status. It too controls the charging circuitry and the MOSFET switches which connect the battery cells to the connector. So if it doesn't get any command it won't charge and/or allow current flow to the connectors.
An invisible battery can either be caused by a dead controller or a damaged charger circuit which inhibits the controller's power supply. A battery with dead cells usually will be shown as being present but not operational.
Years ago I had some Compaq laptops with "intelligent" batteries. Their controller would make an incorporated fuse blow when a specific number of cycles was reached. After that the battery would also be invisible...
Regards,
barclay66
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 12:37 am Post subject: |
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I guess the puzzle will be solved when the new battery arrives. I ebay'd a new battery.
Staples wants $109.00 for it. Best Buy has it for $90.00. I bought it from a specialty battery supplier on ebay NIB for $37.50 with free shipping. I can wait for that. 
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CasetheCorvetteman
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
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Location: Australia
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| Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:28 am Post subject: |
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Keep us posted
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry, I almost forgot about this. The new battery solved the problem. The original "new" battery that has been in this laptop for over a year in the un-charged state must have bit the big one. So all this laptop needed was a DC power jack repair and a new battery. All is well now.
I needed to get this laptop running so I could use it as a scan tool do diagnose and adjust some parameters on my GM 6.5 diesel engine after some injection pump repair. After all this, I did the repair sooo good that no adjustment were needed.
Oh well, the laptop is working again as well.
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Tinman
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 1326
Location: Carson City Nevada
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| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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| stefuel wrote: | | Sorry, I almost forgot about this. The new battery solved the problem. The original "new" battery that has been in this laptop for over a year in the un-charged state must have bit the big one. |
That goes without saying. You CANNOT allow Li-Ion batteries to total discharge. Ideal state for storage is to keep them around 50%.
Marc
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Tinman wrote: | | stefuel wrote: | | Sorry, I almost forgot about this. The new battery solved the problem. The original "new" battery that has been in this laptop for over a year in the un-charged state must have bit the big one. |
That goes without saying. You CANNOT allow Li-Ion batteries to total discharge. Ideal state for storage is to keep them around 50%.
Marc |
Fiddy cent
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