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XS+ power up problem
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY

Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:28 pm    Post subject:

Got my Two Heat sinks in today. I have partial Board made up and think I'll place it on the heat sink
as so.

The Fins will face up and the Component side of the PCB will be upside down in the chassis.

I could put the board perpendicular on the heat sink but then I'll loose space in the chassis
for the two other boards. Perpendicular would dissipate the heat more evenly over the Heat sink,
but Again I'll loose chassis space.

I might actually have to cut the top away where the heat sink fins come out over the top
of the Chassis. Which I think I'd prefer. The logistics for fixing them to the chassis will come later.

If this chassis wont work I will get another and save this for another Project.

Athansios



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CxTurbo



Joined: 13 Oct 2008
Posts: 425
Location: Ontario, Canada

Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:36 pm    Post subject:

Nash,


Those look a lot beefier then the other ones you had that is for sure.

I need to finish up with all this Marquee business before I get going on mine.

James

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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY

Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:41 pm    Post subject:

CxTurbo wrote:
Nash,


Those look a lot beefier then the other ones you had that is for sure.

I need to finish up with all this Marquee business before I get going on mine.

James


Oh Yeah they are about three to four times heavier too!!!

I'll use the other PS shown previously for the Moome MUX.
And build two new PS's for the big heat sinks,

Comparison.



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CxTurbo



Joined: 13 Oct 2008
Posts: 425
Location: Ontario, Canada

Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:48 pm    Post subject:

Looks like they have plenty of surface area for heat dissipation.

I know guys on DIYAUDIO are using heat sinks from him for Aleph clones and all kinds of PASSDIY projects. You should see the huge sinks they use for four output devices per channel. 4RU chassis with massive Toroids big cap banks and the sinks are as tall and long as the side of the case per side.........

Want to build some Mono's one day. Along with a set of Mono tube amps tube, phono stage and the list goes on LOL!

This looks like a bunch of fun though.

James

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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY

Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:50 pm    Post subject:

The price wasn't bad either compared to AVID directly. These were 2.35 per inch.

Nashou

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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 18114
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7

Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:12 pm    Post subject:

CxTurbo wrote:
You should see the huge sinks they use for four output devices per channel. 4RU chassis with massive Toroids big cap banks and the sinks are as tall and long as the side of the case per side.........

Remind me of the heat sink I used on my brewing control panel:

I used something that was probably overkill:



Installed:



I love big heat sinks!

Kal

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HK-Steve



Joined: 15 Jul 2006
Posts: 849
Location: Switzerland

TV/Projector: Marquee 9500, Epson 8100

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:11 am    Post subject:

Nashou,
Those look like the same heatsinks I put on my Marquee.



Cheers
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HK-Steve



Joined: 15 Jul 2006
Posts: 849
Location: Switzerland

TV/Projector: Marquee 9500, Epson 8100

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:58 pm    Post subject:

Nashou,
I thought you were going to keep the heatsinks seperate from each other, not one large one?
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:49 pm    Post subject:

HK-Steve wrote:
Nashou,
I thought you were going to keep the heatsinks seperate from each other, not one large one?


I could split the Heat sink down the middle. it was cheaper to order a whole sink.

And Since the C/W is so much better and the surface area is over 4x the on board ones I used I figured
it wouldn't matter. Plus If it just fits better this way on the heat sink. It should be fine.

When I did the calculation for the original heat sink I thought it would be fine and it wasn't.

This is where I need help.

Heat sink info at AMB

http://www.amb.org/audio/sigma11/

Heatsink sizing considerations

The heatsink should have low enough thermal resistance to support the amount of heat to be dissipated. Bigger and more efficient heatsinks have lower thermal resistance specifications. To determine whether a heatsink is adequate, the power disspation must first be calculated. Use the following formula:

P = (Vin - Vout) * I

Where,
P = power dissipation in Watts. This is given off as heat.
Vin = pre-regulator voltage (measured across C5) under load
Vout = the regulator's output voltage
I = sustained output current in Amperes

Since two paralleled MOSFETs serve each rail, each MOSFET will dissipate half the power. However, if the two MOSFETs will be mounted on the same heatsink, then the full power dissipation figure should be used.


This confuses me, P in the formula is what? for both? Should I halve it if I use separate HS or double If I use one?

Next, we determine if a heatsink (given its thermal resistance rating in °C/W) is sufficient. To do that, we calculate what the MOSFET internal junction temperature would be and check if it would approach the maximum rating of the device with some headroom.

The formula is:

Tj = Ta + (P * (Rjc + Rcs + Rsa))

Where,
Tj = junction termperature
Ta = ambient temperature
P = power to be dissipated
Rjc = thermal resistance of junction to device case
Rcs = thermal resistance of device case to heatsink
Rsa = thermal resistance of heatsink to ambient

For the IRLZ24N MOSFET, Rjc is 3.3°C/W. Ta is the highest ambient termperature you expect the circuit will operate under (note that if the circuit is going to be in an enclosure, then Ta will be higher than room temperature!). P is the power dissipation we calculated. Rcs is the sum of the thermal resistance of any mounting isolation pads, heatsink compound, etc., and you can look that up from their datasheets. And Rsa is the thermal resistance of the heatsink itself.

Calculating for Tj, and comparing it to the MOSFETs' maximum junction temperature of 175°C, you can determine if the heatsink is good enough. Even though these IRF MOSFETs are very rugged, you should avoid letting the MOSFET junction temperature exceed 100°C to prevent reduced device lifespan. Under extreme conditions, forced air cooling (e.g., fan) may become necessary.

Ok, so my:

Vin= 12.77
Vout=5.1(zener diode I am measuring 4.84)
I= about 2A but you Steve measured more right? Maybe we should use 3A

http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/irlz24n.pdf

Therefore P=(12.77-4.84)*3 where P=23.78

So we are looking for Tj now

Tj = Ta + (P * (Rjc + Rcs + Rsa))

My original C/W for the Ohmite heat sink was 3.1 or the Rsa

So we had

Ta=35c I figured the ambient would be in the 90f
P=23.78
Rjc=3.3 (from data sheet link above)
Rcs=.5 ( from data sheet)
Rsa=3.1 from Ohmite data sheet for heat sink

Tj= 35+ (23.78*(3.3+.5+3.1)
Tj= 35+(23.78*6.9)
Tj=35+164.082
Tj=199 OOOOOPPS!!!!! I did not get that when I first did my calculations!!!

Now i see the problem, Also my original formula I used 10 volts out from the Transformer, but the board reads 12.78
that would change the numbers too. If i used 10 volts i would have a P=15.48

So looks like I need to possibly also change my transformer to have a lower secondary. The one I got should read 10VAC
on the secondary but it reads 11.78. And on the board after rectification it reads 12.77 where you put that into the Power dissipation formula

So even with my new heat sink value 1.15 C/W I'll be at 150 Tj


I guess I'll have to try it and measure directly again.


Arggggg!!!!

Nashou

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HK-Steve



Joined: 15 Jul 2006
Posts: 849
Location: Switzerland

TV/Projector: Marquee 9500, Epson 8100

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:05 pm    Post subject:

Yes, Max was 3.05amps,
minimum as 1.48amps,

I rounded my original to 1.5 and 3amps.

But interesting, the heat dissipation is very high with the Singma design.

Why is it that the Wallwart and replacement laptop style have such small heatsinks??????



Better regulation of the voltage? and less noise??

Looks like some scope time.........




Cheers
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:07 pm    Post subject:

Because the Sigma is not a SMPS I would assume. those can regulate voltage with less heat. The sigma is a clean noiseless PS.

Athanasios

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HK-Steve



Joined: 15 Jul 2006
Posts: 849
Location: Switzerland

TV/Projector: Marquee 9500, Epson 8100

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:08 pm    Post subject:

Quote:

Since two paralleled MOSFETs serve each rail, each MOSFET will dissipate half the power. However, if the two MOSFETs will be mounted on the same heatsink, then the full power dissipation figure should be used.


Is this a common ground problem, that derates the heatsink??

If electrically isolated, would it make a difference????
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:14 pm    Post subject:

HK-Steve wrote:
Quote:

Since two paralleled MOSFETs serve each rail, each MOSFET will dissipate half the power. However, if the two MOSFETs will be mounted on the same heatsink, then the full power dissipation figure should be used.


Is this a common ground problem, that derates the heatsink??

If electrically isolated, would it make a difference????


I am not sure. But the designer is very knowledgeable. Lots of good designs on that site.

what is wierd too is I tired a bunch of Zener diodes to find 5.1 volts and all 8 i tried
i ended up with 4.84 volts. All the other voltages were a bit higher on the test points for their recommended
voltages.

Nashou

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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:59 am    Post subject:

Well I got it on the heat sink. Taped the holes and two holes for the stand off. I'll have to figure out what to do for the other
half where the stand offs are off the heat sink.

But I have a problem where I am suppose to get a reading off two resistors near the Mosfet . They read under 1 volt and should read near 7, but this is whats weird if i swap the lead of my multimeter so I put the ground to positive I get a over 5 volt reading.

the Output is at 5.8 volts and measures the correct phase of positive then negative if I swap leads.

I posted on the AMG forum so we'll see what they say.

swell here is the schematic if anyone wants to try to help here Wink



Link to operating voltages test points.
http://www.amb.org/audio/sigma11/s11_5v_voltages.pdf



thanks Guys!!



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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY

Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:45 am    Post subject:

You wont believe what it was. Partsconnexion sent me the wrong resistors for R4 and R5. they are suppose to be 100 Ohm's
they sent me 100 Kohms and I never noticed till I started to build my third board. I put in some Vishay 1% 100 Ohm resistors I had fro some board onthe marquee and used those. i now get the correct range of voltages.

Arrggg So now I am going to replace them on my first build with the on board heat sinks and see how it runs. maybe cooler but I doubt it.

Nashou

_________________
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HK-Steve



Joined: 15 Jul 2006
Posts: 849
Location: Switzerland

TV/Projector: Marquee 9500, Epson 8100

Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:38 am    Post subject:

Cool, Glad you got it worked out.

Well my XS+ played up again last night, was watching Cloud Atlas, 3/4's the way through,
Blank screen.

No response to remote control, Reset XS+, no picture, Marquee was no problem, test patterns up. Grrrrr........

Look at it again today.


Cheers

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CxTurbo



Joined: 13 Oct 2008
Posts: 425
Location: Ontario, Canada

Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:36 pm    Post subject:

That sucks Nash Glad you figured it out though.

James

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dvh99



Joined: 25 Dec 2009
Posts: 2158
Location: nederland

Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:48 pm    Post subject:

the heatsink fins should be in a vertical positition.
try to let the regulators to regulate as less as possible, this reduces pd.

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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY

Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:03 pm    Post subject:

Oh I know Dennis. I just have it like that in the pictures. I will have the entire assembly facing up In the chassis. Unless I buy another chassis that is taller and put the fins vertical instead if horizontal and facing up. I still can't believe I didn't notice the restores were the wrong ones!!! Dooohhh!!!!!!

Also the Transformer was suppose to have a 10 volt out parallel 20 volt out in series. But i'm getting 11.54 VAC in center tap set up.

I am not jumping the wires as the data sheet says to and am just going out the 11,12 for one board and 7,8 for the other board.

I think the data sheet says to tie some of them together. I dont see why. This will be a more balanced output.

here is the data sheet for connections, see how they tie in 12 to 8 and 11 to 7. I assume I still take the tap outs from the way have it now 11 and 12 and then 7 and 8. I ahve to see if this lowers the voltage to 10 VAC.

http://www.hammondmfg.com/pdf/185Insert.pdf


Athanasios

_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher


"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16171
Location: West Seneca NY

Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:05 am    Post subject:

Well its much cooler but still gets warm. it went from 70c with those On board heat sinks to 26.6c with the large off board one. I should have went an inch wider!!! Wink

The next test will be to hook up one of the radiances and watch a movie. This was only about a 20 minute run.

Athanasios



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_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher


"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

One Smart Dog!!!

Marquee High Performance Bellows now shipping!!
Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
Marquee C-element and Bellow removal
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