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HaydnG90
Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 1356
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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| AnalogRocks wrote: |
Convenience?? What is this convenience you speak of?
Hands up all here that own more than one 4 wheel moving dolly. |
Me 
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TheVerge
Joined: 19 Jul 2009
Posts: 928
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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This is a good way to find out which curt palme board members have facebook lol.
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draganm
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 8990
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | draganm wrote: | | most people don't give a crap about pic quality. |
Don't give a crap, or it isn't their number-one consideration? Because, in the grand scheme, for non-enthusiasts, a TV is a TV is a TV. Really. Does American Idol or the nightly news really look that different from TV to TV? Not really. Just like to some people, a car is a car is a car. IIRC, you're even kind of coming around to that line of thinking, Dragan...
SC |
guilty as charged  I could care less how mcuh horsepower, luxury, or techno-gadgetry a car has. Gas mileage and bad weather ability is my only criteria. and yeah, I would want a slim, modern looking TV if my house didn't already have one of those stupid little cubby-holes in the living room with the sh*tty gas-burning fireplace built into it. Currently housing a Shamsung 32" set capable of 1080i but showing 480i or 480P (DVD)
I've even scaled down my HT, went back to a simple Denon receiver after selling my amps and currently even without a turntable. 
I have to say it felt good to get rid of that crap and just go downstairs, turn the PJ, receiver, and BD player on and watch a movie. Pic and sound are still fantastic. The things that pisses of me about that articel is they scrapped such a great machine. That's what I hate the most, waste.
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JamesAB
Joined: 15 Jan 2011
Posts: 56
Location: New Hampshire
TV/Projector: Marquee 8000
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| draganm wrote: | | The things that pisses of me about that articel is they scrapped such a great machine. That's what I hate the most, waste. |
Let's imagine it had badly burnt tubes and suffered a severe glycol leak. 
Who knows maybe it had been struck by lightning too...
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| draganm wrote: | | The things that pisses of me about that articel is they scrapped such a great machine. That's what I hate the most, waste. |
Yeah, it makes me almost physically ill to think about a machine like that going to a recycler to be scrapped... And I'm not even a Marquee fan!
SC
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| JamesAB wrote: |
Let's imagine it had badly burnt tubes and suffered a severe glycol leak.
Who knows maybe it had been struck by lightning too... |
All repairable within a day, and for under $700.
OK, well, save for the tubes. Frankly though, the people that bought new $60K Vidikrons never had time to watch them, and most that I've seen had under 3K hours on them.
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Ridebreck
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 943
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | Hmm... I don't know about characterizing "digital owners" as a group... Based on my personal experience, most digital owners are very well-read, know exactly where their equipment falls short, and where it excels. Yeah, they read comments from others, because they CAN! Back in the day, everybody read magazine reviews like Stereo Review because there WAS no other place to go! Today, enthusiasts spend hours pouring over a few magazines, but more likely forums and web sites.
Don't confuse casual users with enthusiasts... There have always been casual users of everything that annoyed the enthusiasts... You know, the guy could afford the enthusiast's sports car - but it was just his daily driver...
I guess I just don't see much difference then and now in terms of what people bought and how they bought it, save for how inexpensive the technology has gotten. The prices have simply allowed WAY more people into the fold, and it annoys some of you guys that they're not enthusiasts who care about all the same things as you guys...
SC |
Good points. Lifestyles and priorities play a large role in what people buy, and as these change, so do people's purchase decisions. I'm a good case in point. I cut my teeth into the HT world a few years ago with a 8111+ that I bought from Clarence. I learned alot in the process and even managed to wrestle a pretty darned decent image out of that machine over time, but as my household grew and my available "screw around in the HT" time decreased, I simply didn't have the time or desire to fuss around with it any more. So I ended up parting-out the CRT, buying a 720p DLP, and pocketing a little bit of cash in the process.
Want I found after switching to the digital was that for the small amount of time that we got to actually spend in the HT watching stuff, I was actually enjoying the content instead of finding myself looking for convergence errors, critiquing the focus, etc. Sure, I could have probably gotten the Marquee to that same point of reliability, but that would have taken time away from my family and other personal hobbies that I simpy didn't want to give up any more.
The mainstream consumer is pretty much the same - they just want a good viewable image that they can enjoy a movie / football game / video game on without having to spend hours tweaking focus, geometry, color settings, gamma, etc. or without spending hundreds of dollars hiring someone to do it for them. For them (and me now to some degree), a TV (or projector) is just another appliance. They may spend a bit more for a model with a few more bells and whistles, but at the end of the day, they simply don't care if their grayscale tracks perfectly or if their ANSI black level is up to snuff with Brand X's latest model.
CRT PJ's and RPTV's are great machines as we all know, but they do require an extra amount of dedication, and they can be quite sizeable. If you're agreeable to this then you will be rewarded for your efforts, but it's not for everyone.
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"Hooray Beer!!"
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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What I just don't get is the people that say 'CRT needs constant tweaking'. Heck, I've gone into bars with 3 year old Zenith projectors that were run 14 hours a day that had stable convergence. Ditto for the later Zenith PRo 900s in homes. Properly installed, a CRT shouldn't need continual tweaking. They also shouldn't fail if properly installed and proper venting is given to the sets.
Sure, I personally would always do some preventative maintenance like Dragan's mods before installing a 10+ year old sets, but that's to ensure long term flawless operation.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: |
I saw Sony's new sets with LED matrix with local-dimming at CEDIA and they were truly gorgeous - a massive improvement over edge-lit designs, great on/off, and far superior uniformity to any projection design. In fact, I disagree with your characterization that there is no comparison between RP CRT and flat panel in terms of picture quality...
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Although I'll agree that in your case you would still perfer a flatpanel.....I will not agree that even a newer LCD has better picture quality then a RP CRT. I guess its been a while since you've seen one.
I wont deny that I have plasmas and LCD's all over the house and motor home, but I still have my trusty RP in service on a daily basis.
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Ron W
Joined: 07 Aug 2009
Posts: 860
Location: Mississauga
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | What I just don't get is the people that say 'CRT needs constant tweaking'. Heck, I've gone into bars with 3 year old Zenith projectors that were run 14 hours a day that had stable convergence. Ditto for the later Zenith PRo 900s in homes. Properly installed, a CRT shouldn't need continual tweaking. They also shouldn't fail if properly installed and proper venting is given to the sets.
Sure, I personally would always do some preventative maintenance like Dragan's mods before installing a 10+ year old sets, but that's to ensure long term flawless operation. |
It's funny you should say that. There is that old saying, "the more things change the more they remain the same". Still today, even with the newer technologies, when you walk in to a big box store or any store for that matter that has a bunch of these monitors turned on with the same programming, maybe outside of convergence issues, it becomes very clear that most still have color and grayscale issues which is really no different than a CRT you would have bought years ago. I was in one particular store that I used to frequent that had two top-of-the-line Panasonic plasmas beside each other turned on with the same programming showing on both. One had a very noticeable shift to the green and the other to the blue. I pointed that out to my friend who is the manager and he stated to me, "well, I see you noticed did you"? Oh well, I would guess most that eventually purchased that monitor wouldn't have noticed or even cared anyway.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | What I just don't get is the people that say 'CRT needs constant tweaking'. Heck, I've gone into bars with 3 year old Zenith projectors that were run 14 hours a day that had stable convergence. Ditto for the later Zenith PRo 900s in homes. Properly installed, a CRT shouldn't need continual tweaking. They also shouldn't fail if properly installed and proper venting is given to the sets.
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This goes for RP CRTs also. Well setup they never need to be tweaked.
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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Yup, 44K hours+ on my BArco retro, and I tweak it maybe once a year. Changed the blue glycol last year, the green is due this year.
Original tubes to boot, contrast and brightness well under 50.
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Ridebreck
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 943
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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There-in lies the 'problem' that lots of folks have with CRT - there are alot of "if's" with CRT that folks simply don't want to mess with: they last for a long time "if" you do the preventative maintenance / the setups are stable "if" you set them up properly / you can utilize HDMI connections "if" you buy this extra module / etc. Given the choice between either paying someone to properly set up a CRT display, learning how and spending the time to do it themselves, or buying that shiny new digital that they can just plug in and it's "good enough", they're going to likely go with "good enough". Hell, I did it myself.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Ridebreck wrote: | | There-in lies the 'problem' that lots of folks have with CRT - there are alot of "if's" with CRT that folks simply don't want to mess with: they last for a long time "if" you do the preventative maintenance / the setups are stable "if" you set them up properly / you can utilize HDMI connections "if" you buy this extra module / etc. Given the choice between either paying someone to properly set up a CRT display, learning how and spending the time to do it themselves, or buying that shiny new digital that they can just plug in and it's "good enough", they're going to likely go with "good enough". Hell, I did it myself. |
Well maybe for FP but RP is setup from the factory, so unless someone messes with it, it should be fine.
And you got the good enough part right but do they "know" the PQ is not as good and do they "know" that that shiny new digital is only going to last a fraction of the lifespan of CRT?
Also many RP CRTs have DVI inputs and you can use an HDMI to DVI cable. I have mine that way right now.
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12088
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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The shiny new digital will work fine "if" they don't mind replacing it every few yeras.
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Ridebreck
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 943
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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| macgyver655 wrote: | | Ridebreck wrote: | | There-in lies the 'problem' that lots of folks have with CRT - there are alot of "if's" with CRT that folks simply don't want to mess with: they last for a long time "if" you do the preventative maintenance / the setups are stable "if" you set them up properly / you can utilize HDMI connections "if" you buy this extra module / etc. Given the choice between either paying someone to properly set up a CRT display, learning how and spending the time to do it themselves, or buying that shiny new digital that they can just plug in and it's "good enough", they're going to likely go with "good enough". Hell, I did it myself. |
Well maybe for FP but RP is setup from the factory, so unless someone messes with it, it should be fine.
And you got the good enough part right but do they "know" the PQ is not as good and do they "know" that that shiny new digital is only going to last a fraction of the lifespan of CRT?
Also many RP CRTs have DVI inputs and you can use an HDMI to DVI cable. I have mine that way right now. |
Ultimately, I think that it's a perspective thing. My wife is a good example. When my Mits RPTV died recently and we replaced it with a Panny plasma, my wife noticed two things immediately: (1) there was no longer this "gigantic tv" in the middle of the room, (2) the image was much more crisp and vibrant to her.
There's nothing anyone can do about the size difference, but my old Mits wasn't set up to it's full potential. I brought it back from the dead once before after replacing tons of caps and the convergence chip, but I simply didn't have the experience or equipment to dial that thing in to its full potential image-wise. Sure, I could have flown someone in and paid however many hundreds of dollars to get it singing, but to someone like my wife, to do that would have been ridiculous when we can just run down to the house of the blue shirts and pick up a brand spankin' new one that wouldn't require us to fly in a tech to calibrate.
In casual conversations with other former CRT RPTV owners (and from what I've noticed in browsing Craigslist ads), there's one very common statement: their "big / bulky" RPTV that they've had for years suddenly stopped working and was going to cost them $400 - $500 to have someone come replace a part. Then they go on to talk about how that's anywhere from 1/3 to 1/2 of what a new flat panel costs, so in their mind it doesn't make sense to pay 1/2 the price of a new TV to fix one that they've had for nearly a decade (and probably looked like crap before it broke anyway due to dusty lenses and mirror). Add to that the manufacturers' marketing that talks about tens of thousands of hours before the backlights dim, the massive contrast ratios, the interactive media abilities, the much smaller sizes, the "hip" aspect, etc., and that bulky, often times dead CRT is going to lose out every time. Admitedly, it lost in my house too.
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24396
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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Bah, we can argue this to death, even though we're all on the same side. 
I'd say over 1/2 the Furys were sold to digital owners that were lacking an HDMI input. Finding a digital that lasts 10+ years will indeed be tough, so *some* preventative maintenance on a 10-20 year old CRT is to be expected.
I was gonna post on that audiofool thread that I wonder if the Steven author guy ever sold those $70K CRTs. I'm sure if he did, they were the cat's ass at the time. Now that he's selling CRT, it's really easy to crap on everything else, which is a really poor example of a sales guy.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Ridebreck wrote: | | macgyver655 wrote: | | Ridebreck wrote: | | There-in lies the 'problem' that lots of folks have with CRT - there are alot of "if's" with CRT that folks simply don't want to mess with: they last for a long time "if" you do the preventative maintenance / the setups are stable "if" you set them up properly / you can utilize HDMI connections "if" you buy this extra module / etc. Given the choice between either paying someone to properly set up a CRT display, learning how and spending the time to do it themselves, or buying that shiny new digital that they can just plug in and it's "good enough", they're going to likely go with "good enough". Hell, I did it myself. |
Well maybe for FP but RP is setup from the factory, so unless someone messes with it, it should be fine.
And you got the good enough part right but do they "know" the PQ is not as good and do they "know" that that shiny new digital is only going to last a fraction of the lifespan of CRT?
Also many RP CRTs have DVI inputs and you can use an HDMI to DVI cable. I have mine that way right now. |
Ultimately, I think that it's a perspective thing. My wife is a good example. When my Mits RPTV died recently and we replaced it with a Panny plasma, my wife noticed two things immediately: (1) there was no longer this "gigantic tv" in the middle of the room, (2) the image was much more crisp and vibrant to her.
There's nothing anyone can do about the size difference, but my old Mits wasn't set up to it's full potential. I brought it back from the dead once before after replacing tons of caps and the convergence chip, but I simply didn't have the experience or equipment to dial that thing in to its full potential image-wise. Sure, I could have flown someone in and paid however many hundreds of dollars to get it singing, but to someone like my wife, to do that would have been ridiculous when we can just run down to the house of the blue shirts and pick up a brand spankin' new one that wouldn't require us to fly in a tech to calibrate.
In casual conversations with other former CRT RPTV owners (and from what I've noticed in browsing Craigslist ads), there's one very common statement: their "big / bulky" RPTV that they've had for years suddenly stopped working and was going to cost them $400 - $500 to have someone come replace a part. Then they go on to talk about how that's anywhere from 1/3 to 1/2 of what a new flat panel costs, so in their mind it doesn't make sense to pay 1/2 the price of a new TV to fix one that they've had for nearly a decade (and probably looked like crap before it broke anyway due to dusty lenses and mirror). Add to that the manufacturers' marketing that talks about tens of thousands of hours before the backlights dim, the massive contrast ratios, the interactive media abilities, the much smaller sizes, the "hip" aspect, etc., and that bulky, often times dead CRT is going to lose out every time. Admitedly, it lost in my house too. |
Again, I can't argue the big bulky part.
However I can argue that having spent the 1/2 of a flat panel cost to repair/clean and readjust the RP CRT, that same CRT would again outlast that shiny digital by a multiple factor, and........ have a better PQ.
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macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 8508
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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And let it be known that I write these posts while also sitting here attempting to bring some 3 year old LCDs back to life...without it costing as much as a new one, which isn't cheap in itself.
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ChrisWiggles
Opinionated SOB
Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 2529
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 4:53 am Post subject: |
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I'd believe this story. I picked up a Vision One that was basically dumped by a contractor who was pissed at us for not fixing a really high-end system for free, and he couldn't dispose of it so he ditched it in our parking lot. I grabbed it immediately. Worked great, used it for a short while, sold it for a bargain, and now it's come full circle and Steve has it.
If it's a large business, it's more of a hassle wasting time trying to craigslist something locally. And no way you're going to want to go through the logistical PITA of trying to ship it and get the gears of business bureaucracy turning quickly.
And chances are the tubes were shot anyway, an HT unit that old by now is going to be pretty sad.
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