CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum

Gannon

Hey folks...I'm dreaming a little today.

I'm back to setting up my reference systems, which have been in storage for more years than I care to count.

Last night, I watched the old Unity Motion/Princeton Graphics AF-3.0HD 30-inch tube set...run by a 720p Faroudja Native Rate processor...which was fed by a MSB Laserdisc player and the Integra Research RDV-1 DVD/DVD-Audio player.

I had to dig the LD player out to watch my copy of Akira Kurosawa's Dreams, which from back in 1990 has some really curious imagery about a nuclear disaster in Japan...almost prophetic, if not entirely so. Watched some of that, as much as my honey could stand...then dug out the old Animation 2.0 disc that sold so much video for me back in the day.

Later on, after she fell asleep, I then watched nearly the entire Frampton Live In Detroit DVD...and once again was amazed at the video quality. It was spectacular, if not for the rapid-edits from the crack-addled producer of the concert!

EVEN the old LaserDisc image was compelling. The Faroudja does SUCH a great job with that old composite feed.

SO, now to the dream. Back when Snell&Wilcox and Teranex were vying for the most expensive and utterly-ridiculous video processing trophy, we learned that all CRT projectors have a sweet-spot...a resonance they like BEST to run at...which had to do with the particular resolution and refresh timing their multi-scanning circuitry ran best at.

To ME, these are ALL Electromagnetic Resonators...and I've always setup projectors where they scream the least. The units I've installed are largely still in service, their failure rate has been remarkably low.

What IF someone were to design a SINGLE-SCAN rate 9-inch CRT projector...which could easily be double-stacked for wide-screen applications using Tim's processor? Something which would be MUCH simpler to setup and adjust, since it would NOT be designed for every computer and video resolution, but rather ONLY 1080P? We could probably limit the screen size to a few variations, not unlike the old Advent/Kloss designs. Funny that we're back at curved screens, too!

I KNOW the engineers are still around who can design a drive circuit, but we'd have to find the ones who are most sensitive to resonance...which I've found are the most ethereal of engineers. In the audio world, only a handful of engineers bother with electro-acoustical resonance, like Niro (Nakamichi) and that Australian company Halcro.

This projector would have to employ that AND keep the EM resonance well-tuned to best performance at 1080p...and be locked to a video processor which would properly scale everything to that resolution and refresh.

I KNOW this is a HUGE endeavor...but like I said, it is merely a dream. I think the resources are out there, and the marketplace exists, since even the best of the latest fixed-pixel projectors still suck at the most basic of issues...turning off to the 'cave-black' we need for TRUE 3d depth-of-field. And a WHOLE BUNCH of people are getting truly sick of the maintenance costs of bulb-based projectors. (not to mention the timing, since they are ruled by our corollary of Murhpy's Law!)

So, I'm going into my third espresso of the day...pondering this dream.

Cheers, all. Enjoy your hifi today...I know I will!

Sincerely,
John
Detroit

Tim in Phoenix · Joined: 21 Oct 2006 Posts: 4409 Location: Phoenix

Say John

Lovely ideas but no one here has $40K to lay out for a new projector. A Marquee could be fitted with a single-rate horizontal section and optimized yokes, but what happens if the technology changes again and 1080p goes out the window?

.

dturco · Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:43 pm Post subject:

No sweat, just blend, 2, 1080p Marquees and poof a sweet 2160 picture and lots of heat and noise and cost.

I feel that digital 4k is going to be all the rage in the next 5 years. Cost to be determined.

Spanky Ham · Joined: 22 Mar 2006 Posts: 5643 Location: Comedy Central

I am sure Scott could probably design something like this, but would it be that much of an improvement.

Dave,
4k is already here. Sony has had one for a couple of years (VDC even sells them). JVC has had one for at least two years (see Crabb's drool:)). DLP is just coming out. The only problem is that they are expensive. Epson has said that they should have ramped up production by the middle of the decade. I can't find any timelines on the technology, but a rough guess would be under $10k 4k by 2014. The big issue with 4k is source. Hopefully the Red cameras and the like will give us a lot of native 4k.

Gannon · Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:11 pm Post subject:

Nah, not worried about numbers.

I can prove that 720p done properly is within Nyquist suggestions for double the discernable sampling rate for a 7-foot screen size, adn 1080p is well beyond it...so the numbers wouldn't mean a damn thing.

They would only appeal to those who read instead of watch.

Why do you think it would be $40k? Who said it would have to be NEARLY that expensive?!

If they have single scanrate drive circuitry, AND IT IS WITHIN the EM resonance sweet-spot for the entire system, then much of the engineering has already been done.

It also wouldn't have to be hot and loud...hell, the ONLY reason the current models are so damn loud is they're designed for 24/7 operations in a f*cking WAR ROOM!

You guys aren't very imaginative thinkers...hell, Edward at Dwin proved that most of the internal fans were simply not necessary for a unit designed for residential use.

Open up your minds for a moment...let 'em wander...

Gannon · Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:24 pm Post subject:

I believe this chase for higher resolution and even BRIGHTER imagery is mis-guided at least.

I've never setup a 7- or 8-inch CRT with anything HIGHER than 8ftL of peak white, as long as they were in a very tightly controlled viewing space...and they are COMPLETELY compelling...involving...FATIGUE-free longterm viewable recreations of reality. (which last nearly forever without any maintenance, save a wee bit of center convergence from tube drift!)

The eye/brain accomodates whatever level of intensity you want to feed it...JUST like the rest of the merely human perceptual system.

You can all wish and hope for your own 500-600 HP cars, too, but that is the SAME idiocy. NOT applicable to most real-world situations, and very wasteful.

Everyone seems to want more sugar and salt in their prepared foods, too. Don't get me started on 130-dB sound systems, either. What do you mean, you can't HEAR me?! Exactly. And your wife won't come down to 'enjoy' a movie with you?! Because it hurts her when you turn it up loud!

My take on the matter is that the human perceptual system NEVER knows when to say when...BUT if each of us learns to limit our own intake, our own desire for adrenaline and the like...then we can make ourselves finally HAPPY with what we have.

I'm merely saying that I think CRT done well is STILL better than any-k of digital that cannot actually get down to black. BLACK is what makes true depth-of-field (which is what makes TRUE third dimensional imagery), and NO bulb-based design will get there. LED-lights will ONLY do global masking to black, but will have the same damn problems they ALL do with black within the image.

So...I'm merely proposing a PERFECT video display which will require very little maintenance and rule the high-end world.

Spanky Ham · Joined: 22 Mar 2006 Posts: 5643 Location: Comedy Central

I have come up with some out there ideas, but Scott usually brings me back to reality. Smile

Scott has mentioned before that just about everything there is to be known about CRT is already been discovered.

My guess is Tim was talking about the whole pj. Could a board or boards be developed cheaper? Probably, but how big is the market?

Gannon · Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:40 pm Post subject:

I'm not talking about any sort of DISCOVERY. When did I imply THAT??!!

The MAIN 'discovery' was when Snell&Wilcox figured out EM resonance and how to figure out the sweet-spot of an entire system.

I'm talking about adding up every POSITIVE solution we've ever been presented with to make the ultimate CRT display chassis...which would ONLY operate at one scan rate, it's sweetest.

Then perhaps only shine on two screen sizes...8-foot flat or 11-foot curved (or whatever is determined to be the greatest average for a reasonable perfect screening room).

All of this was on Joe Kane's wishlist from over a decade ago...I'm NOT talking anything NEW here...I'm merely saying that since after ten years the digital camp has still not delivered on fatigue-free imagery that goes truly to black, there is a market for the best, which is the 'old' Cathode Ray Tube!

Cheers

Gannon · Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:42 pm Post subject:

Tim was only talking about how they've been marketed in the past, which he is GREATLY experienced with...but does not see how that limits his imagination!

Not a dig at Tim, just the reality of how our previous programming dictates our ability to think outside that box.

Gannon · Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:45 pm Post subject:

So, we'd have to use 4:3 CRTs...or actually they are 5:4 or something like that...then one of two sets of anamorphic lenses for single-projector use (one for the smaller flat-screen, the other for the larger curved one), or the old-school standard lenses for double-stacks where the outboard processing blends 'em together.

Because NOBODY is going to engineer widescreen CRTs for projector use...heh.

Gannon · Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:47 pm Post subject:

So far, the market size is exactly zero, because I cannot afford one either. LOL!

Tim in Phoenix · Joined: 21 Oct 2006 Posts: 4409 Location: Phoenix

dturco · Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:48 pm Post subject:

Gannon · Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:12 pm Post subject:

ecrabb · Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:22 pm Post subject:

jeffslife · Joined: 17 Apr 2010 Posts: 4190 Location: ohio usa

EYEGASM ! That is becoming part of my vocabulary.

ecrabb · Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:31 pm Post subject:

Gannon · Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:35 pm Post subject:

I like it, too.

But seriously...another order of magnitude of resolution is not necessary. I'd do double-blinds with 720p and 1080p plasmas at recommended viewing distances and would expect the majority of the population wouldn't notice any difference with standard HD program material.

If you stand way too close, it will appear night-n-day, but from recommended distances I'd bet that most won't justify paying for the difference...let alone the infrastructure to make it happen.

Plus, Hellywood would have angina-gasms imagining us having that clarity of their work at home, they already have largely lost us in the theaters.

Heck, I CAN see the difference clearly between 720p and 1080p, and I cannot be bothered merely waiting for the BluRay FBI threat to leave the screen, so I'm still really, truly enjoying DVDs upscaled to 720p on both the Princeton Graphics AF-3.0HD and NEC XG75 on a 7.5-foot wide 1.3 gain screen. It is good enough for this uber-tweak...and I don't have to put up with ANY of the bull**** from BluRay.

I really, really despise any forced firmware updating, and consider anyone who accepts it to be rather sheepish. Sorry.

Cheers

dvh99 · Joined: 25 Dec 2009 Posts: 2158 Location: nederland

nevertheless, digital remains fatigueing (i must have misspelled that Smile

) to my eyes and crt not.

gannon as you know, mike made lots of improvements to the marquee and with a blended system as some on this forum have, you will be blown away, i am sure of that.

Nashou66 · Joined: 12 Jan 2007 Posts: 16171 Location: West Seneca NY